Gin foon mark and officer Derek Chauvin

Hanzou

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I'd just like to add that placing your knee on someone's neck in BJJ is frowned upon and oftentimes outright banned because it's a dick move that can really hurt your partner. That's on a mat. We're talking about someone facedown on concrete.

Further, once you have someone on their stomach with their hands cuffed behind their back, it's laughable that you need to control someone further by putting your knee on their neck. If that's "standard police training", the police need to be retrained.
 

wab25

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First off, I am in no way defending Derek Chauvin. Once the hand cuffs are on, there was no need for the knee to be on his neck. However, I don't believe that the knee on the neck killed him, or had much part in killing Floyd.

The knee on the neck did not choke him by blocking his airway. As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath... Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.

In the art I study, we use that knee in the neck technique. It is not a choke. It can't be a choke. First, it only attacks one side of the neck, leaving the other side completely open. Just like doing only one side of a collar choke won't choke anyone out. Further, Floyd was facing away from Chauvin, meaning that the knee was on the rear side of the neck, not the front side of the neck. This is important, because to get at the arteries and veins for the blood choke, you need to be on the front side of the neck... where you check for a pulse, not on the back side of the neck. The knee in the neck can be dangerous. But the injury it causes would be a fractured vertebrae, not a choke out. If Floyd had his vertebrae fractured, he would not be saying "I can't breath" he would be screaming in agony.


This is what caused Floyd to die.
Positional asphyxia, also known as postural asphyxia, is a form of asphyxia which occurs when someone's position prevents the person from breathing adequately. Positional asphyxia also may be a result of the policing technique known as "prone restraint", used by police, corrections, military, or health care staff.[1] People may die from positional asphyxia accidentally, when the mouth and nose are blocked, or where the chest may be unable to fully expand.
A 1992 article in The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology[2] and a 2000 article in The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology said that multiple cases have been associated with the hogtie or hobble prone restraint position.

The New York Police Departments guidelines, explaining protocols for mitigating in-custody deaths, were published in a 1995 Department of Justice bulletin on "positional asphyxia."[3][4] The NYPD recommended that, [a]s soon as the subject is handcuffed, get him off his stomach. Turn him on his side or place him in a seated position."[3][4] A 1996 FBI bulletin said that many law enforcement and health personnel were being taught to avoid restraining people face-down or to do so only for a very short period of time.[1]
Sound familiar? Floyd was kept face down for a long period of time.
Prolonged (particularly resisted) restraint, obesity, prior cardiac or respiratory problems, and the use of illicit drugs such as cocaine can increase the risk of death by restraint, according to a 2001 article in American Journal of Emergency Medicine.[12]

Positional asphyxia is not limited to restraint in a face down position according to a 2011 article in Medicine, Science, and the Law. Restraining a person in a seated position may also reduce the ability to breathe, if the person is pushed forwards with the chest on or close to the knees. The risk will be higher in cases where the restrained person has a high body mass index (BMI) and/or large waist girth.[13][14]
Floyd was not just put face down, for a long period of time, with most of the above mentioned additional factors (over weight and drugs) he also had J. Alexander Kueng kneeling on his back for those 9 minutes. I believe J. Alexander Kueng had more of an effect on killing Floyd that Chauvin. J. Alexander Kueng was actually helping to prevent Floyd's chest from fully expanding.

Why is this important to understand? First, both Chauvin and Kueng should be held responsible. More importantly, the public is now calling for police to ban choke holds... something most police forces have already done. But, there is no out cry against holding people face down in a hogtie position. This is where we should be putting the attention.
On May 25, 2020, according to a private autopsy contradicting the official autopsy, George Floyd died by asphyxia when Minneapolis Police officer Derek Chauvin knelt on Floyd's neck and another officer, J. Alexander Kueng, knelt on his back for almost nine minutes as Floyd lay on his stomach on the pavement.[18][19][20]
Police departments are happy to publicly ban choke holds, but that does not change anything, as most had already banned them. We should be asking to change procedures about holding people on the ground, face down, with officers on top of them.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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First off, I am in no way defending Derek Chauvin. Once the hand cuffs are on, there was no need for the knee to be on his neck. However, I don't believe that the knee on the neck killed him, or had much part in killing Floyd.

The knee on the neck did not choke him by blocking his airway. As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath... Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.

In the art I study, we use that knee in the neck technique. It is not a choke. It can't be a choke. First, it only attacks one side of the neck, leaving the other side completely open. Just like doing only one side of a collar choke won't choke anyone out. Further, Floyd was facing away from Chauvin, meaning that the knee was on the rear side of the neck, not the front side of the neck. This is important, because to get at the arteries and veins for the blood choke, you need to be on the front side of the neck... where you check for a pulse, not on the back side of the neck. The knee in the neck can be dangerous. But the injury it causes would be a fractured vertebrae, not a choke out. If Floyd had his vertebrae fractured, he would not be saying "I can't breath" he would be screaming in agony.


This is what caused Floyd to die.


Sound familiar? Floyd was kept face down for a long period of time.

Floyd was not just put face down, for a long period of time, with most of the above mentioned additional factors (over weight and drugs) he also had J. Alexander Kueng kneeling on his back for those 9 minutes. I believe J. Alexander Kueng had more of an effect on killing Floyd that Chauvin. J. Alexander Kueng was actually helping to prevent Floyd's chest from fully expanding.

Why is this important to understand? First, both Chauvin and Kueng should be held responsible. More importantly, the public is now calling for police to ban choke holds... something most police forces have already done. But, there is no out cry against holding people face down in a hogtie position. This is where we should be putting the attention.

Police departments are happy to publicly ban choke holds, but that does not change anything, as most had already banned them. We should be asking to change procedures about holding people on the ground, face down, with officers on top of them.
What's interesting about this, is the hospital that I worked at required us to do a protection course-which was mostly BS (I have a write up of it somewhere here). But one thing they did address was positional asphyxiation, and went over something like 50 examples of people dying from it in hospitals and/or care facilities. So it's now banned (i believe, it's been a year so going off memory) to hold someone facedown in a hospital in new york. No similar rule was discussed for chokeholds (although that may just be nurses are much less likely to put someone in a chokehold than restrain improperly).

That said, I haven't actually watched the chauvin floyd video as I've got no desire to spend 15 minutes watching someone die, so can't say anything about which one it likely is.
 

drop bear

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I'd just like to add that placing your knee on someone's neck in BJJ is frowned upon and oftentimes outright banned because it's a dick move that can really hurt your partner. That's on a mat. We're talking about someone facedown on concrete.

Further, once you have someone on their stomach with their hands cuffed behind their back, it's laughable that you need to control someone further by putting your knee on their neck. If that's "standard police training", the police need to be retrained.

Sometimes they headbutt the ground for no good reason and I do it. And I do it in training to get the T bag kimoura.

But the last guy I arrested I had in kasegetami and he went unconscious.
 

Buka

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I've had that knee on neck applied to me from an advanced Judo guy. He was a friend, we were working on different things and it was on a hard cement floor covered with indoor/outdoor carpeting.

I gotta tell ya, it was one of the most frightening things I've ever felt. It hurt bad, too. Nasty bad.
 

Hanzou

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First off, I am in no way defending Derek Chauvin. Once the hand cuffs are on, there was no need for the knee to be on his neck. However, I don't believe that the knee on the neck killed him, or had much part in killing Floyd.

The knee on the neck did not choke him by blocking his airway. As was pointed out, he could talk, saying that he could not breath... Its also impossible to to do a blood choke, with only the one knee. If you train BJJ or Judo or any art that teaches collar chokes... try applying a collar choke with only one collar, leave the other side of the neck alone. Sure, you cut off the blood from one side... but you will never choke a guy out, unless you have at least both sides of the neck.

In the art I study, we use that knee in the neck technique. It is not a choke. It can't be a choke. First, it only attacks one side of the neck, leaving the other side completely open. Just like doing only one side of a collar choke won't choke anyone out. Further, Floyd was facing away from Chauvin, meaning that the knee was on the rear side of the neck, not the front side of the neck. This is important, because to get at the arteries and veins for the blood choke, you need to be on the front side of the neck... where you check for a pulse, not on the back side of the neck. The knee in the neck can be dangerous. But the injury it causes would be a fractured vertebrae, not a choke out. If Floyd had his vertebrae fractured, he would not be saying "I can't breath" he would be screaming in agony.


This is what caused Floyd to die.


Sound familiar? Floyd was kept face down for a long period of time.

Floyd was not just put face down, for a long period of time, with most of the above mentioned additional factors (over weight and drugs) he also had J. Alexander Kueng kneeling on his back for those 9 minutes. I believe J. Alexander Kueng had more of an effect on killing Floyd that Chauvin. J. Alexander Kueng was actually helping to prevent Floyd's chest from fully expanding.

Why is this important to understand? First, both Chauvin and Kueng should be held responsible. More importantly, the public is now calling for police to ban choke holds... something most police forces have already done. But, there is no out cry against holding people face down in a hogtie position. This is where we should be putting the attention.

Police departments are happy to publicly ban choke holds, but that does not change anything, as most had already banned them. We should be asking to change procedures about holding people on the ground, face down, with officers on top of them.

Actually it can become a choke because you're placing an extreme amount of weight on the neck, and the bony portion of your knee is penetrating force compressing the relative softness of the neck. That can cause a restriction of blood and air flow despite it being only on one side. You comparing it to one side of a collar choke is laughable. You can't apply nearly as much pressure with half a collar choke that you can from placing a knee and your weight on someone's neck. Yeah, it's not as efficient as a choke being applied to both sides of the neck (hence why he passed out in a matter of minutes instead of seconds), but it's still restricting air flow.

Add to that someone on their chest which restricts full inhalation, their hands behind their back which further restricts breathing, and heat and humidity, and it's relatively easy to see that it's a rather barbaric way to restrain someone.

I have no issue with cops applying chokes as long as they know wtf they're doing. Unfortunately from my experience they seemingly don't or they get an inordinate amount of satisfaction from dominating people. Frankly both can be true.
 
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wab25

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Actually it can become a choke because you're placing an extreme amount of weight on the neck
Actually, a brick can fly just like a plane, if you give it enough power.

We know it was not restricting air flow, he could talk and he did talk. In order to get enough pressure through the neck, from that position, to close off blood flow, you would need to put an enormous amount of power through the neck, which, if you watch the video, Chauvin was not doing. Further, it would cause a lot of pain, so much so that Floyd would not have been able to say "I can't breath" he would have been screaming in agony, and likely there would have been a fractured vertebrae.

What did the police officers do that contributed the most to his death? They kept him face down way too long, much longer than necessary. That was the single biggest thing the police officers did to him, that contributed to his death. I hold all officers there accountable for that. The next largest contributor from the police, was officer Keung on his back, restricting Floyd's chest from being able to fully expand.

The attention should be on the police use of the hogtie or hobble hold, or any other form of restraint, where the person is held face down. Once you get the cuffs on, the person should be immediately put into a position where they can breath freely, and given medical attention. Keung should be held at least as responsible as Chauvin... as what Keung did, contributed much more to Floyd's death, than what Chauvin did.
 

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Actually, a brick can fly just like a plane, if you give it enough power.

We know it was not restricting air flow, he could talk and he did talk. In order to get enough pressure through the neck, from that position, to close off blood flow, you would need to put an enormous amount of power through the neck, which, if you watch the video, Chauvin was not doing. Further, it would cause a lot of pain, so much so that Floyd would not have been able to say "I can't breath" he would have been screaming in agony, and likely there would have been a fractured vertebrae.

What did the police officers do that contributed the most to his death? They kept him face down way too long, much longer than necessary. That was the single biggest thing the police officers did to him, that contributed to his death. I hold all officers there accountable for that. The next largest contributor from the police, was officer Keung on his back, restricting Floyd's chest from being able to fully expand.

The attention should be on the police use of the hogtie or hobble hold, or any other form of restraint, where the person is held face down. Once you get the cuffs on, the person should be immediately put into a position where they can breath freely, and given medical attention. Keung should be held at least as responsible as Chauvin... as what Keung did, contributed much more to Floyd's death, than what Chauvin did.
I fully agree with you until the last paragraph.

Floyd was a know felon with a history of violence so precautions were justified. Were they done correctly? No. I feel we all agree on this point.
A hogtie is about as safe and humane as it can get in some cases. The person can move around and be rolled on their side.
I have memories of more than a few times when I was the only officer subduing a violent person for extended periods. One of them broke the glass and window frame out of the back of my patrol car when I tried to move them with just hand cuffs behind their back.

And to be fair, most people have bad connotations of a 'hogtie'. Cuff the hands, cuff the feet, short chain between each and the person is still able to move around without harm to the officer or themselves.
 

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Actually, a brick can fly just like a plane, if you give it enough power.

No human has the power to make a brick fly at 500mph. However, humans are more than capable of placing their knee on someone's neck and restricting air and blood flow to the brain.

We know it was not restricting air flow, he could talk and he did talk. In order to get enough pressure through the neck, from that position, to close off blood flow, you would need to put an enormous amount of power through the neck, which, if you watch the video, Chauvin was not doing. Further, it would cause a lot of pain, so much so that Floyd would not have been able to say "I can't breath" he would have been screaming in agony, and likely there would have been a fractured vertebrae.

You're confusing complete restriction from partial restriction. Just because he could talk does not mean his air flow wasn't being restricted. His air flow was not completely cut off, but he was on his stomach with weight placed on his back and neck, thus the expansion of his lungs were reduced. That is a restriction of air flow. Hence why he passed out after 8 minutes instead of passing out in a couple of seconds which occurs during full restriction.

If I stand on your back with your chest on concrete, I'm sure you can still talk, but your air flow is still being constricted because your lungs are not being allowed to fully expand. If I place my knee on your neck its a similar situation. If I'm on your neck and your back, and you're chest down, you're going to eventually die.

What did the police officers do that contributed the most to his death? They kept him face down way too long, much longer than necessary. That was the single biggest thing the police officers did to him, that contributed to his death. I hold all officers there accountable for that. The next largest contributor from the police, was officer Keung on his back, restricting Floyd's chest from being able to fully expand.

The attention should be on the police use of the hogtie or hobble hold, or any other form of restraint, where the person is held face down. Once you get the cuffs on, the person should be immediately put into a position where they can breath freely, and given medical attention. Keung should be held at least as responsible as Chauvin... as what Keung did, contributed much more to Floyd's death, than what Chauvin did.

If you look at the video, he isn't face down, his face is to the side facing the camera. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. If the knee wasn't on the neck (and other officers weren't on his back) he wouldn't have died when he did. The pressure from the knee to the neck along with the compression of his chest is what killed him.
 

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he was on his stomach with weight placed on his back and neck, thus the expansion of his lungs were reduced. That is a restriction of air flow. Hence why he passed out after 8 minutes instead of passing out in a couple of seconds which occurs during full restriction.
If I stand on your back with your chest on concrete, I'm sure you can still talk, but your air flow is still being constricted because your lungs are not being allowed to fully expand.
This is what killed Floyd. This is what no one is talking about. We only want to talk about chokes. The officer with his weight on Floyd's back contributed the most to his death. In fact, I would venture to say that if everything were the same, except that Chauvin walked away, no knee on the neck, Floyd would still have died, from being held down by the officer on his back. Taking the knee off the neck, would not have saved Floyd. Taking the officer off his back, and putting him in a position where he could breath might have.

If I place my knee on your neck its a similar situation.
Without the other guy on my back, I will talk to you all day. My lungs will work fine. I know, because I have been in that position many times before. Blood flow is not an issue, air flow is not an issue. Extreme pain in your vertebrae will be an issue long before air flow or blood flow will be an issue.

It was the position Floyd was held in, combined with the weight of the officer on his back, that restricted his chest, that killed him.
 

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This is what killed Floyd. This is what no one is talking about. We only want to talk about chokes. The officer with his weight on Floyd's back contributed the most to his death. In fact, I would venture to say that if everything were the same, except that Chauvin walked away, no knee on the neck, Floyd would still have died, from being held down by the officer on his back. Taking the knee off the neck, would not have saved Floyd. Taking the officer off his back, and putting him in a position where he could breath might have.


Without the other guy on my back, I will talk to you all day. My lungs will work fine. I know, because I have been in that position many times before. Blood flow is not an issue, air flow is not an issue. Extreme pain in your vertebrae will be an issue long before air flow or blood flow will be an issue.

It was the position Floyd was held in, combined with the weight of the officer on his back, that restricted his chest, that killed him.
Question: How do you think oxygen get to organs like the brain? Through BLOOD transference!!!

Take a person with apnea. That can go over a minute and not breath and do that dozens of times in the same night.

Floyd was overdosing on Fentanyl. He was already extremely compromised. This will be the primary COD.

Absolutely mistakes were made but you are wasting everyones time making an argument when you dont know what you are talking about.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Floyd was overdosing on Fentanyl. He was already extremely compromised. This will be the primary COD.
I thought I recalled that the medical legal team (whatever that role is called) had determined he wasn't ODing on fentanyl. I looked into it and, apparently they said that the fentanyl in his body indicated that he most likely wasn't, and that he was not breathing the way he would have been if he was ODing (that does have a very clear way of breathing; like I said I haven't actually watched the video to judge that). They also stated that a healthy person would have died as well, so all that sums up to it was not the primary cause of death.

Below is one of the articles I found on it.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert
 

wab25

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Question: How do you think oxygen get to organs like the brain? Through BLOOD transference!!!

Take a person with apnea. That can go over a minute and not breath and do that dozens of times in the same night.

Floyd was overdosing on Fentanyl. He was already extremely compromised. This will be the primary COD.

Absolutely mistakes were made but you are wasting everyones time making an argument when you dont know what you are talking about.
There are some questions about what drugs Floyd may or may not have been on at the time. I only went into the actions the police officers took.

They put Floyd into a position known to cause positional asphyxia. They kept him in that position long after he was cuffed. Officer Keung stayed on his back, long after he was cuffed.

Lets go over the facts. Floyd was over weight, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. He had just tried resisting arrest, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. He may have been on drugs, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. He was put down on the ground in a position, which makes him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. Keung put his own body weight on top of Floyd, which further restricted his chest, making him more susceptible to positional asphyxia. Floyd was held like that for 9 minutes.

But instead of talking about positional asphyxia, we have one side arguing that he was choked to death. This side gets upset when the autopsy says anything other than "he was choked to death." The other side says he was ODing on drugs, and this side won't accept any autopsy that says otherwise. And then we have an actual autopsy saying that he died of asphyxia.

Floyd ticks every box that makes a person susceptible to positional asphyxia: over weight, large girth, resisting arrest, and possible drug use. The officers did everything known to cause positional asphyxia: put him face down, put another officer on top of him and held him in that position, restricting his chest for 9 minutes. The autopsy came back saying he died of asphyxia. But, lets ban police from choking people, again... lets continue to ignore positional asphyxia, and maybe it won't happen again to someone else.

I am now going to step out of this thread, before things get heated or political.
 

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I thought I recalled that the medical legal team (whatever that role is called) had determined he wasn't ODing on fentanyl. I looked into it and, apparently they said that the fentanyl in his body indicated that he most likely wasn't, and that he was not breathing the way he would have been if he was ODing (that does have a very clear way of breathing; like I said I haven't actually watched the video to judge that). They also stated that a healthy person would have died as well, so all that sums up to it was not the primary cause of death.

Below is one of the articles I found on it.
George Floyd died from lack of oxygen, not fentanyl, says expert
I should have clarified my opinion.
You are correct on the official COD as it stands right now.
I expect this trial will blow things wide open.
My opinion is that Floyds lifestyle, leading up to to the incident is the real COD.

Here is the catch 22 of referencing articles; there is almost always one that opines a persons own views.

 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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I should have clarified my opinion.
You are correct on the official COD as it stands right now.
I expect this trial will blow things wide open.
My opinion is that Floyds lifestyle, leading up to to the incident is the real COD.

Here is the catch 22 of referencing articles; there is almost always one that opines a persons own views.

To clarify for myself, I referenced the first article that I found, that stated what the medical team had as a cause of death. But re-reading your initial post, I see the issue-it was my own reading. You had put "will be" indicating you believe the listed COD will change. That makes much more sense.

I also don't see anything in that article that goes against the article I shared, it just elaborates on the explanation of why those other factors are included.
 

Buka

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I think the court will determine what killed George Floyd. I think it will be Derek Chauvin.

I stopped caring about either of them some time ago. Not worth my emotional investment.

 

JowGaWolf

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I stopped caring about either of them some time ago. Not worth my emotional investment.
I still care about it because I know that could be me in a situation like that. Not the resisting part but the being arrested part. People make assumptions about others and I'm not free from such assumptions. Situations like that can turn bad in a blink of an eye, all it takes is a bad cop who thinks I'm the worse.

I swear the only thing that helps me keep my calm is that I'm broke. So whatever happens better legit because my lawyer will. lol.
 

Buka

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I still care about it because I know that could be me in a situation like that. Not the resisting part but the being arrested part. People make assumptions about others and I'm not free from such assumptions. Situations like that can turn bad in a blink of an eye, all it takes is a bad cop who thinks I'm the worse.

I swear the only thing that helps me keep my calm is that I'm broke. So whatever happens better legit because my lawyer will. lol.
I don't blame you for caring about it, not one little bit.
 

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