G&P And The Guard

[MJS]

The following is only my opinion, from what I've observed from early UFC fights to the present day.

When the UFC first came to light, we saw a tall, slender man, pretty much walk into the ring, and dominate all comers to the octagon. We saw Royce clinch, take down, and pretty much frustrate the hell out of his opponent and then move in for the finish. No matter how hard we saw someone struggle, they just could not pass his guard.

Fast forward to present day. Today we see many great fighters enter the ring. We see, at least IMHO, people doing alot more striking than we did in past shows. Today, someone ends up in the guard, and instead of seeing the technical guard pass, we see the top guy stand up, and begin to G&P, often with much success. We see the guy on the bottom pretty much eat many punches.

So my question is...did the use of the guard fade? I'm not saying that the fighters of today dont know how to grapple, but I'm saying that it seems like the bottom guy lately is more vulnerable compared to what we used to see with Royce.

Again, this is not meant to take anything away from anyone. I tip my hat and give a ton of credit to the folks that step into the ring. They have alot of guts to do that. I'm just making a simple observation. I could be wrong, but this is what it seems like to me.

Thoughts?

 

[Nolerama]

I've been scratching my head on that one, too. For every time a fighter postures up to go in for G&P strikes, he gives his grounded opponent opportunity to escape or go for a submission...

Personally, I think G&P is an art of its own. Maybe pro fighters' ground games need some time to catch up.

 

[K831]

One thing I notice with the newer guys at our school, they strike on their feet, the fight goes to the ground, they switch into "grappling" mode immediately and then get submitted pretty quick.

They momentarily forget they can strike from the ground.

I think that happened alot during the early UFC/MMA. Guys would get taken down and not know what to do because they didn't have "submission"...as fighters began to realize they could frustrate a lot of submission attempts on the ground just but continuing to strike, it became more common practice, part of gameplans and workouts.

As a result, the guys going for submissions today have a whole lot more to contend with than Gracie did in the early days.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Well first few are on a technical level with Royce Gracie when it comes to the guard. Those that are like BJ Penn and a few others do pretty well by keeping people in their guard. (though he was ineffective vs. GSP) However, in reference to G & P it is an most effective ways to get out of some ones guard. Couple it up with groin strikes while executing a guard pass and that is really effective.

(of course you cannot do that in the ring)

 

[Andrew Green]

I think the biggest reason Royce had that much success is that his opponents had no idea how to deal with his guard. Some of them had probably never been in someones guard, let alone a BJJ black belts guard.

The guard is still important, but the illusion of it being almost a dominate position over being on top that many people seemed to think it was after the first few UFC's is gone.

If you are on your back, and the other guy is allowed to hit you and knows how to keep his balance and not get submitted, chance are it's going to suck.

Fighters are also a lot more patient now, partly because they know what to expect, partly because their are time limits and judges decisions, partly because they don't have to fight again that night if they win, etc. G&P has become its own area of training, and fighters now know how to do it well, without exposing themselves as much.

 

[strikesubmit]

well...as i see it, there are still fighters who utilize the guard and are quite dangerous with it. Cerrone, Penn, Mir, etc.

i agree with just about everyone that GnP has become somewhat of a method of escape as well as a training focus.

and quite frankly, while audiences have acquired more and more grappling knowledge, there is still more of a reaction if they see some GnP goin on....

plus, within the rules in these types of competitions, those strikes stick in the minds of judges when they score as opposed to technical escapes. i mean, these aren't jiu-jitsu tournaments after all.

actually, this reminds me of a quote from one of the Gracies..."hit a blackbelt in the face, he becomes a brown belt...hit him again, he becomes a purple belt...." and so it goes.

 

[Steve]

Just to clarify one point, guys, the guard isn't a dominant position. Relative to positional heirarchy, full guard is a neutral position.

Back Mount/Mount Top
Side Mount Top
Half Guard Top
Guard
Half Guard Bottom
Side Mount Bottom
Back Mount/Mount Bottom

So, when you speak about guard and G&P, just bear in mind that it gives specific advantages to both the bottom and the top. It's never been (in my relatively short experience) considered a position of particular advantage. Rather, it's a neutral springboard for sweeps and submissions.

 

[jarrod]

while i don't quite subscribe to positional heirarchy, steve is right. i tell my guys that the guard is the best of a bad situation. you want to be on top, but if you are on bottom, you want guard.

that said i don't think people train guard against a ground & pound enough, or view it as an offensive position. the days where you could tie somebody up with your guard & rest are long gone, & the guard needs to evolve accordingly. this is why i like to teach open guard from the beginning. even when you're in a bad spot, you can't give your opponent time to plan. the bottom man should be constantly attacking the top man's balance while throwing low-risk, conservative strikes. bas rutten was great at this, see his fight with kevin randleman. but you don't see it anymore, often it looks like the bottom man is stalling for a stand-up. this gives the top man time to wail away.

jf

 

[DavidCC]

I see a lot of guys just wrap the waist with their legs, cross their ankles, and wait.

I was taught to use my legs to move his body around and as a lever to move mine.

 

[SensibleManiac]

I think G and P has evolved since those old days.
I always thought it was and is one of the best ways to defeat and even pass the guard.
Now we see few guys like Mir and Demian Maia who can use the guard effectively to prevent strikes and sweep or submit their opponents very effectively.
I think some of it also has to do with lack of BJJ training in some MMA fighters.
Alot of guys take a more wrestling approach and now newer MMA approach to passing the guard which is GnP and it's very effective on most fighters but obviously not all.

 

[Steve]

Dustin Hazelett's guard is killer. The rubber guard he showed off in UFC 91 was really fun to watch. That entire UFC turned out to be a BJJ clinic. If anyone wants to see an example of a dynamic guard against a pretty good grappler in Tamdan McRory, that's a great fight. Both were very good grapplers, but Hazelett was just on another level.

http://fliiby.com/file/124220/reeqvqhaij.html fight starts at about 7 minutes into the video.

 

[searcher]

IMO, the guard lost its effectiveness when Rampage showed how vulnerable a person in a dominate guard position(triangle choke) could get knocked out(the slam).

Techniques like the triangle used to be a standard for the guy in guard and now it can be very scary to put it on an experienced fighter.

 

[Steve]

IMO, the guard lost its effectiveness when Rampage showed how vulnerable a person in a dominate guard position(triangle choke) could get knocked out(the slam).

Techniques like the triangle used to be a standard for the guy in guard and now it can be very scary to put it on an experienced fighter.

Rampage is a lot of man. Honestly, against a guy like him, is there ANY safe position?

Seriously though, to play devil's advocate, the Self Defense solution to the slam is to simply stand up. If someone is in my guard and he lifts me up to slam me on the mat/pavement, I can simply let go and stand up. I might still be tied up in a clinch, but I won't get slammed.

 

[jarrod]

Rampage is a lot of man. Honestly, against a guy like him, is there ANY safe position?

Seriously though, to play devil's advocate, the Self Defense solution to the slam is to simply stand up. If someone is in my guard and he lifts me up to slam me on the mat/pavement, I can simply let go and stand up. I might still be tied up in a clinch, but I won't get slammed.

also if you underhook the leg you should be able to roll them over or at least prevent being picked up. i always thought that was pretty basic but it seems like you never see that anymore.

jf

 

[Steve]

also if you underhook the leg you should be able to roll them over or at least prevent being picked up. i always thought that was pretty basic but it seems like you never see that anymore.

jf

That's an excellent point.

 

[MJS]

Good points! I'd especially like to thank those with more ground work than I, for contributing to this thread. Sadly, while I'm still on the mat, I'm not there as much as I'd like, so other opinions are great.

Like its been said, I think the biggest thing that contributed to what seemed like a great position, was the fact that the guys Royce was fighting, didn't have nearly the game that todays guys do. Case in point, Matt and Gracie.

So, I think it could be a combo. of someone today not putting that much time into really working for a sub, as well as the top guy just overwhelming the bottom guy with strikes. Granted groin shots are not allowed, however, it seems like the top guy can position himself just right, so he's dropping some serious bombs on the face of the bottom guy.

To take this thread a bit further....going on the effectiveness of the G&P, what is the best solution, in your opinions, to answer that? I would think that just letting go and using your legs to kick from the ground would be a start.

 

[searcher]

Rampage is a lot of man.

Seriously though, to play devil's advocate, the Self Defense solution to the slam is to simply stand up. If someone is in my guard and he lifts me up to slam me on the mat/pavement, I can simply let go and stand up. I might still be tied up in a clinch, but I won't get slammed.

also if you underhook the leg you should be able to roll them over or at least prevent being picked up. i always thought that was pretty basic but it seems like you never see that anymore.

jf

Steve said it best, Rampage is a lot of man. But there are other fighters in the world that are just as strong and capable.

Jarrod, underhooking the leg is fine, unless they are strong enough to break free. I know there are defenses to getting slammed, but they have a tendency of not working in the heat of the moment.


BTW-I was just making a point on when it seemed to make a switch, in response to OP.

 

[jarrod]

you're right, underhooking the leg isn't fool proof. but it's one of many ways of attacking your opponent's balance which you don't see that often.

jf

 

[Andrew Green]

I would think that just letting go and using your legs to kick from the ground would be a start.

Not really, at least not without a good level of control of the other person. Kicks from the bottom are definitely a good tool, but done at the wrong time, or against the wrong person they can also leave you getting your guard passed.

I don't think there is a "solution" that is for everyone. It is a dangerous place to be, and the wrong action will make it worse. For some people the best thing to do is protect themselves and stall for a stand up or end of round, others it is going to be working for a sweep or submission, others working back to their feet, etc.

Just depends on what your skill set is and how it relates to your opponents skill set.