Fundamentalist "Christians?"

[elder999]

Which is why I think that the WWJD? bumper stickers are so ironic.

Yeah, I saw a good one the other day: Who Would Jesus Torture?

 

[Tez3]

Clearly most Jews keeping kosher disagree with your interpretation, since modern technology has made food poisoning from lobster or pork as rare as food poisoning from beef or chicken.

Far from it with pollution in our seas and oceans being so rife, here we've had mussel and salmon farms going out of business. Food poisoning is still very common, salmonella, E Coli, and gastro enteritis to name a few very common bugs. Kosher rules are as much about how to handle and keep food as it is what you should eat.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/food-poisoning

 

[Empty Hands]

Far from it with pollution in our seas and oceans being so rife, here we've had mussel and salmon farms going out of business. Food poisoning is still very common, salmonella, E Coli, and gastro enteritis to name a few very common bugs. Kosher rules are as much about how to handle and keep food as it is what you should eat.

Come on, do you really think Jews are keeping kosher because they don't want to get food poisoning? The last several big break outs of E. Coli poisoning we have had have been mostly different vegetables, with one beef recall. All perfectly kosher. Pork on the other hand hasn't had a break out in my living memory.

 

[Tez3]

Come on, do you really think Jews are keeping kosher because they don't want to get food poisoning? The last several big break outs of E. Coli poisoning we have had have been mostly different vegetables, with one beef recall. All perfectly kosher. Pork on the other hand hasn't had a break out in my living memory.

We also keep kosher because we have a covernant with G-d and because we want to! The kosher laws also cover how an animal is slaughtered, there is many arguments for and against this but with BSE being now endemic in Europe and the UK, the careful slaughter of fit whole animals has never been more important.
When you say we you mean the US, there's a whole bigger world out there you know! there is a big worry at the moment here because of the superbug MRSA being found in pork in Europe.

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/food-poisoning/food-poisoning

 

[Tez3]

Oh and yes my kitchen is kosher.

 

[kamishinkan]

It is also not just the "Jews" that keep kosher. It is for anyone who believes the word of God is useful for living. I keep Kosher because I do not believe Yeshua (Jesus) broke any commandment nor taught His followers to break them either! As was already said, there are some discussions over what exactly is meant by Kosher (Mosaic / Rabbinic, etc) but the concept is still valid. There has been much testing over the nutritional effects from parasites in pork and mercury and other toxic issues related to shellfish. God gave His followers His commandments (rules) to follow just as any good parent gives rules to their children to follow, because He loves us!!!!

 

[elder999]

It is also not just the "Jews" that keep kosher. It is for anyone who believes the word of God is useful for living. I keep Kosher because I do not believe Yeshua (Jesus) broke any commandment nor taught His followers to break them either! As was already said, there are some discussions over what exactly is meant by Kosher (Mosaic / Rabbinic, etc) but the concept is still valid. There has been much testing over the nutritional effects from parasites in pork and mercury and other toxic issues related to shellfish. God gave His followers His commandments (rules) to follow just as any good parent gives rules to their children to follow, because He loves us!!!!

But.....Didn't Peter have a vision in Acts 10 that said "what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy?"

Acts 10:9-16
9 On the next day, as they were on their way and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour to pray.
10 But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance;

11 and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,
12 and there were in it all kinds of four-footed animals and crawling creatures of the earth and birds of the air.
13 A voice came to him, "Get up, Peter, kill and eat!"
14 But Peter said, "By no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unholy and unclean."
15 Again a voice came to him a second time, "What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy." 16 This happened three times, and immediately the object was taken up into the sky.

Didn't this "settle" some of the early Christian arguments about table fellowhip, circumcision and keeping kosher? Wasn't this, at best, further "fulfillment of the law, through Jesus Christ?"

 

[FearlessFreep]

Didn't this "settle" some of the early Christian arguments about table fellowhip, circumcision and keeping kosher?

Many think so, apparently not all...

 

[Tez3]

But.....Didn't Peter have a vision in Acts 10 that said "what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy?"



Didn't this "settle" some of the early Christian arguments about table fellowhip, circumcision and keeping kosher?

That last bit ruins the arguments of Christian vegans and vegetarians doesn't it?

 

[kamishinkan]

The vision in Acts 10 was explained a few verses later and was interpreted by Peter as having nothing to do with dietary law.

Acts 10:17 Now while Peter wondered within himself what this vision which he had seen meant......

If the vision meant what he saw why wonder?????

Verse 28 explains the interpretation of the vision......

Acts 10:28 Then he said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation. But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. (see verse 14)

The vision was to teach Peter to go and preach about the Messiah to the "unclean gentiles".

If you are wondering why the reference in the vision of food notice verse that led up to the vision

Acts 10:9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance

Most scholars now agree that this verse had nothing to do with food and had everything to do with people.

 

[elder999]

Many think so, apparently not all...

"Think so?" Think so?

Think????!!!!!

but, but, isn't the "fundamentalist" point of view that :

A bit of history: The word 'Fundamentalist' as applied to certain Christians was first coined and used in a controversy in the early 1900's, as to what would be considered 'essential' foundational truths of the Christian faith. This list included these five items:
1. The Bible as the inspired innerrant word of God (BTW, there was a lot of latitude on what 'inerrant' meant),

You mean, the Bible is fundamentally the "inspired, inerrant word of God," except when someon thinks differently? Is that what "a lot of latitude" is? :lol:

"Oh, yeah, the Bible's all the word of God, except for the parts we say don't count anymore, because we think differently: Poppa likes him some ribs, and Mrs. Gump just loves shrimp, and circumcision is painful, so forget about that!" :lol:

"Well, they're obviously not real Christians, because they don't keep the Lord's commandments, like the Sabbath on Saturday, and set a kosher table...."

"We have to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, except for the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists and the gays-that homosexuality will send you straight to hell faster than Buddha, and he's from de debbil!"

:lfao:

 

[thardey]

"Think so?" Think so?

Think????!!!!!

but, but, isn't the "fundamentalist" point of view that :



You mean, the Bible is fundamentally the "inspired, inerrant word of God," except when someon thinks differently? Is that what "a lot of latitude" is? :lol:

"Oh, yeah, the Bible's all the word of God, except for the parts we say don't count anymore, because we think differently: Poppa likes him some ribs, and Mrs. Gump just loves shrimp, and circumcision is painful, so forget about that!" :lol:

"Well, they're obviously not real Christians, because they don't keep the Lord's commandments, like the Sabbath on Saturday, and set a kosher table...."

"We have to love our neighbors as we love ourselves, except for the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists and the gays-that homosexuality will send you straight to hell faster than Buddha, and he's from de debbil!"

:lfao:

Nope :angel:

At least, not this fundamentalist.

 

[thardey]

"No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. Plenty of "real" fundamentalists hate lots of people. The shape of your dogma guarantees it. You don't get to wave your hands and make them vanish as "real" Christians so you don't look bad.

Careful, that fallacy cuts both ways. There are many who would say that only Christians who hate others are the "real fundamentalists."

My dogma does not guarantee any hate to anybody.

 

[elder999]

Most scholars now agree that this verse had nothing to do with food and had everything to do with people.

....errr.....name two.

and, mind you, I have no issue with your keeping Kosher, or even going on the Twinkie diet because you've received a revelation from the Holy Spirit. However, the phrase "most scholars" is probably misleading at best. In any case, there's a worldwide body of the majority of Christians, fundamentalist and otherwise, who say there is "no unclean thing to eat" because of this verse. Are you saying that they're all wrong? That when Pentecostals sit down for Sunday supper and it's a nice pork roast, they've undoing a week's worth of holiness, and making themselves unclean?

I mean, okay, sure-it's about people, and taking the Gospel to the Gentiles,but the letters to Galatians and some other chapters of Romans deal with the issue pretty well-or even Matthew, 15:11.Christians aren't required to keep a kashrut diet.

 

[kamishinkan]

....errr.....name two??

I could name more than two BUT I will refrain. The last time I was sucked into that trap, any "scholar" I named was just blown off........

So besides that, Matthew 15:11 does not apply to dietary law. Read the verse IN CONTEXT

Matt 15:2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

This was all about dirt not defiling the person not unclean meat. Notice verse 20

Matt 15:20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Yeshua (Jesus) kept Kosher and all of his disciples did as well.

 

[Tez3]

....errr.....name two??

I could name more than two BUT I will refrain. The last time I was sucked into that trap, any "scholar" I named was just blown off........

So besides that, Matthew 15:11 does not apply to dietary law. Read the verse IN CONTEXT

Matt 15:2 "Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread."

This was all about dirt not defiling the person not unclean meat. Notice verse 20

Matt 15:20 These are the things which defile a man, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile a man."

Yeshua (Jesus) kept Kosher and all of his disciples did as well.

No but it really annoys his mother and even G-d himself won't get in the way of a Jewish mother who's son has trangresses her rules! don't for one minute think I'm joking!!

On the commandments.....


Rabbi Simlai taught: Six hundred and thirteen commandments were given to Moses.

Then David reduced them to eleven in Psalm 15, beginning: "He who follows integrity, who does what is right and speaks the truth in his heart"

Micah reduced them to three ( Micah 6:8) "Act justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your G-d"

then came Isaiah and reduced them to two ( Isaiah 56:1) "Keep justice and act with integrity"

Amos reduced them to one (Amos 5:4) "Seek me and live)

Habakkuk also contained them in one ( Habukkuk 2:4) " "But the righteous shall live by his faith"

Akiba taught:
"The great principle of the Torah is expressed in the commandment 'Love they neighbour as you love yourself; I am the Lord' " Leviticus 19:18)

But Ben Azai taught a greater principle (Genesis 5:1)
"This is the book of the generations of man. When G-d created man, he made him in the likeness of G-d"

Makkot

I offer no comments but another piece to provoke thought.

If I am not for myself, who is for me?
But if I am only for myself, what am I?
And if not now, when?

Hillel

 

[elder999]

Yeshua (Jesus) kept Kosher and all of his disciples did as well.

I've never questioned that;what I've said, and will continue to say, is that most "Christians," don't-including many who call themselves "fundamentalist." You, as far as I'm concerned, can do whatever you want, and call yourself whatever you want to. I've got a question, though-

Do you think Christians should keep kashrut? I mean, perhaps it's obvious that you do think that, since you do keep kosher. On the other hand, I've actively discouraged people from keeping prayer some of the ways that I do, so perhaps your keeping kosher is a personal choice.
The question that follows, of course, is do you think people can call themselves "fundamentalist" Christians if they don't keep kosher? Do you think they can call themselves "Christian" at all, if they don't follow the rules that Jesus mostly did?

Most importantly, do you think that the whole of the law codified in Leviticus and Deuteronomy should be followed by Christians? Do you think homosexuals-or whatever is meant by "men who leave lyings with a man as with a woman" should be stoned to death? Etc., etc., etc.?

 

[arnisador]

read it in the original koine, or ancient Greek

I can't not quibble: Koine is Hellinistic Greek, the first reasonably uniform version of Greek, from around the 3rd century BCE. Homeric, for example, is one of many dialects of Ancient Greek (roughly 9th-4th centuries BCE). There are real differences; e.g., koine has largely lost the dual and has only the singular and plural.

OK, I feel better now.

Anyway, the points you make about the difficulty in knowing what the words meant then are very important. One hundred years ago in England, "earnest" meant what "gay" means now. With as few other documents as survived from the time the documents that are now the chapters of the Bible were written--circa 70-110 CE for the major ones--it's very hard to know what means what, especially when looking for nuance. Remnants of shopping lists have been used to help confirm the meaning of some of these books. (To make matters worse, they were written in all capital letters with no spaces between the words, paragraph breaks, or punctuation.) If slang terms were used to refer to homosexuals then as now, and if they changed rapidly as they have for us, it can be very, very difficult to know exactly what's meant.

So, according to Paul, there were some Christians who returned to paganism, practiced sex rites and orgies, and God made them homosexual to screw up the ritual

Heh, a sexual tower of Babel.

While pederasty appears to be homosexual in nature, the reality is that the persons engaging in this activity were for the most part heterosexuals in nature-still are, apparently. Pederasty was considered appropriate to a boy's training for manhood. The relationship was impermanent

Something like this is seen in a variety of cultures.

Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Ted Haggard

Preach on.

 

[elder999]

I can't not quibble: Koine is Hellinistic Greek, the first reasonably uniform version of Greek, from around the 3rd century BCE. Homeric, for example, is one of many dialects of Ancient Greek (roughly 9th-4th centuries BCE). There are real differences; e.g., koine has largely lost the dual and has only the singular and plural.

OK, I feel better now..

oh, so that makes at least two of here who know the difference......wow.

Glad you feel better, though......:lol:

 

[kamishinkan]

I've never questioned that;what I've said, and will continue to say, is that most "Christians," don't-including many who call themselves "fundamentalist." You, as far as I'm concerned, can do whatever you want, and call yourself whatever you want to. I've got a question, though-

Do you think Christians should keep kashrut? I mean, perhaps it's obvious that you do think that, since you do keep kosher. On the other hand, I've actively discouraged people from keeping prayer some of the ways that I do, so perhaps your keeping kosher is a personal choice.
The question that follows, of course, is do you think people can call themselves "fundamentalist" Christians if they don't keep kosher? Do you think they can call themselves "Christian" at all, if they don't follow the rules that Jesus mostly did?

Most importantly, do you think that the whole of the law codified in Leviticus and Deuteronomy should be followed by Christians? Do you think homosexuals-or whatever is meant by "men who leave lyings with a man as with a woman" should be stoned to death? Etc., etc., etc.?

Without going through all of this. I believe that all Christians should keep Biblical Kosher. I do not go as far as judging anyone. I did not keep Kosher for many years of my Christian walk, I thought I did not have to. I believe a relationship with God through His Messiah "grows". I will continue to learn more and more about how to become more like the Messiah. I believe the Spirit of God will continue to lead God's people into all righteousness, this means that we will continue to learn more and more how to walk in God's ways. As far as being stoned goes, I will side with Yeshua and say that the ones who are sin-free should do it, since I have never met one who qualifies, I choose to use more "grace". I appreciate your views and I know that my views do not agree with others views but I do not pass judgement on others for not seeing it the same way. God is Love! :asian: