Functional hand trapping

[Tony Dismukes103]

Some examples from a world champion of hand trapping that is proven to work at the highest levels.

 

[isshinryuronin]

trapping that is proven to work

There is no doubt that this is true. Getting contact/control of the opponent's weapon/hand for me is an ideal first step in any close-range attack. Not only does it nullify a potential counter as you move in for the strike, but it can open the opponent up and allows for some degree of controlling the opponent's body as well. IMO an important technique - a no brainer.

 

[Kung Fu Wang103]

In CMA, your punch can always change into a grab/pull. It's called, "手无空回 Never return you hand back with nothing." This is the beauty of the hook punch. A hook punch can intersect your opponent's arm much easier.

For example, when your opponent throws a left straight punch. You use your right hook punch to go over his arm, under his shoulder, you will get a perfect "underhook".

 

[drop bear103]

Lomenchemco is also a good source.

 

[skribs102]

One thing I think is interesting about martial arts is when you get a new appreciation for a misunderstood traditional technique when applying modern training to it.

The example I have from my recent training is during cardio kickboxing class, I've been going bareknuckle for the last round on the heavy bag each day. What I found is that while ridgehand strikes are generally more painful to execute than a punch; a single ridgehand strike is less painful to execute than your 50th punch. I think part of the reason why we have so many techniques in traditional martial arts is to "damage spread" the impact damage your hands or other striking implements receive when striking with them.

This is similar to the concept of "torso twisting" in Mechwarrior games, where folks will turn their mech to show the least damaged component to the enemy, so they can protect their more damaged areas.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think part of the reason why we have so many techniques in traditional martial arts is to "damage spread" the impact damage your hands or other striking implements receive when striking with them.

1. This is an unintended benefit of sport MA where there may be multiple rounds of sparring/hitting a practice target resulting in dozens and dozens of impact contacts.

2. TMA techniques were developed well before the idea of it being a sport.

3. TMA was designed for actual combat. Most serious fighting will not last more than a few good hits.

So, I don't think multiple weapons/techniques were developed to provide "spares" to replace a damaged one. More likely they were developed to provide an opportunity to hit from various angles and distances with the aim of needing as few impact contacts as possible.

 

[HighKick1]

1. This is an unintended benefit of sport MA where there may be multiple rounds of sparring/hitting a practice target resulting in dozens and dozens of impact contacts.

2. TMA techniques were developed well before the idea of it being a sport.

3. TMA was designed for actual combat. Most serious fighting will not last more than a few good hits.

So, I don't think multiple weapons/techniques were developed to provide "spares" to replace a damaged one. More likely they were developed to provide an opportunity to hit from various angles and distances with the aim of needing as few impact contacts as possible.

I suppose I would put it in the 'tool bag' category. IF I get hurt, I have enough resources to keep going.

 

[HighKick1]

One thing I think is interesting about martial arts is when you get a new appreciation for a misunderstood traditional technique when applying modern training to it.

The example I have from my recent training is during cardio kickboxing class, I've been going bareknuckle for the last round on the heavy bag each day. What I found is that while ridgehand strikes are generally more painful to execute than a punch; a single ridgehand strike is less painful to execute than your 50th punch. I think part of the reason why we have so many techniques in traditional martial arts is to "damage spread" the impact damage your hands or other striking implements receive when striking with them.

This is similar to the concept of "torso twisting" in Mechwarrior games, where folks will turn their mech to show the least damaged component to the enemy, so they can protect their more damaged areas.

Okay, honest question. Would you 'Actually' use a ridgehand in SD or combat?

I have broken many boards and a few blocks with the technique when it was novel to me. And have learned (the hard way) there is a good about of technique about it to be correct and minimize injury. But there is so much about the technique that I view as just wrong and impractical.
Is it a really hard part of the hand? Yes.
Is the delivery of the hand seldom every going to be ideal? Yes.
An Extremely low percentage technique opportunity-wise to me. I just don't think about it much.

 

[drop bear103]

Okay, honest question. Would you 'Actually' use a ridgehand in SD or combat?

I have broken many boards and a few blocks with the technique when it was novel to me. And have learned (the hard way) there is a good about of technique about it to be correct and minimize injury. But there is so much about the technique that I view as just wrong and impractical.
Is it a really hard part of the hand? Yes.
Is the delivery of the hand seldom every going to be ideal? Yes.
An Extremely low percentage technique opportunity-wise to me. I just don't think about it much.

I have weird strikes and I do some hand trapping. But it is a progression.

There needs to be a whole bunch of back of house development that justifies it.

So If you are punching me. And I am punching you and I punch straight. I will probably win. Because it is just more efficient.

But you will know that and put things in place that defend those straight punches and forces me to use all these other methods.

So for example I throw lots of jabs. Which means I am open to right hand counters. I mitigate that by defending with bong sou. And philly shell. This leaves my hand low which opens up for me to throw an upside-down hammer fist.

Which is a weird strike that shouldn't work. And it doesn't unless I am solving problems in a specific way.

Same with hand trapping. Same with Ridge hands.

So if they push or frame with their jab. I can't easily counter jab. Because I walk in to a frame.

But I can reach over the top of their jab/push hand scoop it inwards and pop them with my right hand.

Which should leave the whole left side of my head open.

Exept I use bong sau and philly shell. So it doesn't.

Ok. So the ride hand. Because I use philly shell a lot. I close shoulder to shoulder. This opens up the far side of their head for a looping shot. And I will throw a looping thumb down hook.

But this is where I could throw a ridge hand. If I cared enough.

 

[Tony Dismukes103]

Okay, honest question. Would you 'Actually' use a ridgehand in SD or combat?

I have broken many boards and a few blocks with the technique when it was novel to me. And have learned (the hard way) there is a good about of technique about it to be correct and minimize injury. But there is so much about the technique that I view as just wrong and impractical.
Is it a really hard part of the hand? Yes.
Is the delivery of the hand seldom every going to be ideal? Yes.
An Extremely low percentage technique opportunity-wise to me. I just don't think about it much.

I prefer to use the end of inner edge of the forearm to the actual ridgehand. It's just a lot more solid.

There are definitely opportunities that can come up to use it. Not nearly so often as for a jab or a cross, but it's not a bad thing to have in the toolbox when the moment comes up.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf103]

Okay, honest question. Would you 'Actually' use a ridgehand in SD or combat?

I have broken many boards and a few blocks with the technique when it was novel to me. And have learned (the hard way) there is a good about of technique about it to be correct and minimize injury. But there is so much about the technique that I view as just wrong and impractical.
Is it a really hard part of the hand? Yes.
Is the delivery of the hand seldom every going to be ideal? Yes.
An Extremely low percentage technique opportunity-wise to me. I just don't think about it much.

There are very specific instances, which drop bear went into how they'd come up. But I think you're missing the benefit skirbs discovered - they are a way to train when your knuckles are all bruised. So if you're still conditioning your knuckles (or have them conditioned and are just training for a long time against), and you notice that you're pulling your punches because you're front two knuckles are bothering you. Now you have the opportunity to continue your drills, and any time a strike would come up, instead of throwing a jab/cross, you can throw a ridgehand (or any variety of punches that don't rely on those specific knuckles). This lets you continue training your combinations and drilling timing/flow/whatever, without having to stop to protect your hands.

I have a very strong feeling you already personally do this and have come to this realization, even if you never vocalized it quite the way skribs is here.

 

[Rich Parsons50]

Some examples from a world champion of hand trapping that is proven to work at the highest levels.

I have used traps in self defense and it works me.
I have pulled the reps and worked it into my game / defense.

I have weird strikes and I do some hand trapping. But it is a progression.

There needs to be a whole bunch of back of house development that justifies it.

So If you are punching me. And I am punching you and I punch straight. I will probably win. Because it is just more efficient.

But you will know that and put things in place that defend those straight punches and forces me to use all these other methods.

So for example I throw lots of jabs. Which means I am open to right hand counters. I mitigate that by defending with bong sou. And philly shell. This leaves my hand low which opens up for me to throw an upside-down hammer fist.

Which is a weird strike that shouldn't work. And it doesn't unless I am solving problems in a specific way.

Same with hand trapping. Same with Ridge hands.

So if they push or frame with their jab. I can't easily counter jab. Because I walk in to a frame.

But I can reach over the top of their jab/push hand scoop it inwards and pop them with my right hand.

Which should leave the whole left side of my head open.

Exept I use bong sau and philly shell. So it doesn't.

Ok. So the ride hand. Because I use philly shell a lot. I close shoulder to shoulder. This opens up the far side of their head for a looping shot. And I will throw a looping thumb down hook.

But this is where I could throw a ridge hand. If I cared enough.

I like the idea of the upside hammer fist. ** Unlocked a new fear **
One must now go and train for that new fear Thank you


As to actually using a ridge hand, I personally do not like them. As stated by Tony the inner forearm is much more preferred for me.

That being said, I do like open hand attacks that can be mitigated at the last second.
Knife and into a slap or a palm heel into a push.

Open hands and being up is less threatening than closed fists.
And to be honest my face is usually threatening enough from an ever day look. (* tired of replacing the mirrors in bathrooms - That is joke about how unattractive I look *)

I also like to punch the punches, and elbow the strikes (* Different topic as some will say it is bad to chase and I do not chase. I trap / and then clap. The trapping hand to the elbow. *)
This tells others they have to get hurt to come inside and or to continue. If they wish to leave then they can leave.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Okay, honest question. Would you 'Actually' use a ridgehand in SD or combat?

Not part of my style's toolbag. But it has its use:

I prefer to use the end of inner edge of the forearm to the actual ridgehand. It's just a lot more solid.

Very close in - hook punch.

A little further out - forearm strike (yes, powerful and underrated)

Further out - ridgehand.
This can also be hooked in to reach the back of the head or extended for more reach. IMO it's a worthwhile technique that can have good speed, power and surprise.

 

[Kung Fu Wang103]

I prefer to use the end of inner edge of the forearm to the actual ridgehand. It's just a lot more solid.

This is the beauty of the "head lock". You use the "the end of inner edge of the forearm" to hit the back of your opponent's head. Before you have obtained your head lock, you have almost knocked your opponent half way out.

 

[HighKick1]

I prefer to use the end of inner edge of the forearm to the actual ridgehand. It's just a lot more solid.

There are definitely opportunities that can come up to use it. Not nearly so often as for a jab or a cross, but it's not a bad thing to have in the toolbox when the moment comes up.

I fully agree the motion of the arm has opportunity in a fluid situation but, as you said, the strike needs to be something other than the side of the thumb/wrist if possible (any port in a storm I suppose).

 

[HighKick1]

I have weird strikes and I do some hand trapping. But it is a progression.

There needs to be a whole bunch of back of house development that justifies it.

So If you are punching me. And I am punching you and I punch straight. I will probably win. Because it is just more efficient.

But you will know that and put things in place that defend those straight punches and forces me to use all these other methods.

So for example I throw lots of jabs. Which means I am open to right hand counters. I mitigate that by defending with bong sou. And philly shell. This leaves my hand low which opens up for me to throw an upside-down hammer fist.

Which is a weird strike that shouldn't work. And it doesn't unless I am solving problems in a specific way.

Same with hand trapping. Same with Ridge hands.

So if they push or frame with their jab. I can't easily counter jab. Because I walk in to a frame.

But I can reach over the top of their jab/push hand scoop it inwards and pop them with my right hand.

Which should leave the whole left side of my head open.

Exept I use bong sau and philly shell. So it doesn't.

Ok. So the ride hand. Because I use philly shell a lot. I close shoulder to shoulder. This opens up the far side of their head for a looping shot. And I will throw a looping thumb down hook.

But this is where I could throw a ridge hand. If I cared enough.

I Philly shell a lot, but honestly don't think about a ridge hand much. A hook, yes. A backfist, yes.
Can't say I have ever purposely tried the upside-down hammer fist. Original.

 

[Wing Woo Gar37]

I have weird strikes and I do some hand trapping. But it is a progression.

There needs to be a whole bunch of back of house development that justifies it.

So If you are punching me. And I am punching you and I punch straight. I will probably win. Because it is just more efficient.

But you will know that and put things in place that defend those straight punches and forces me to use all these other methods.

So for example I throw lots of jabs. Which means I am open to right hand counters. I mitigate that by defending with bong sou. And philly shell. This leaves my hand low which opens up for me to throw an upside-down hammer fist.

Which is a weird strike that shouldn't work. And it doesn't unless I am solving problems in a specific way.

Same with hand trapping. Same with Ridge hands.

So if they push or frame with their jab. I can't easily counter jab. Because I walk in to a frame.

But I can reach over the top of their jab/push hand scoop it inwards and pop them with my right hand.

Which should leave the whole left side of my head open.

Exept I use bong sau and philly shell. So it doesn't.

Ok. So the ride hand. Because I use philly shell a lot. I close shoulder to shoulder. This opens up the far side of their head for a looping shot. And I will throw a looping thumb down hook.

But this is where I could throw a ridge hand. If I cared enough.

I use that upside down hammer in at least two applications. We call it a chopping hammer fist. It feels very awkward at first for most people, and it is.

 

[Wing Woo Gar37]

I use that upside down hammer in at least two applications. We call it a chopping hammer fist. It feels very awkward at first for most people, and it is.

I combo it with a downward circling knuckle punch on the same side if have sealed or trapped the opponent with my opposite hand or side

 

[Fungus94]

I enjoy to practive both ridge hand and knife hand in sparring, just to practice. Then mainly to the opponents arms as that is sparring friendly, but I can still do them hard enough to be painful. In a real fight the ideal target would be temple or neck. I find that both of these strikes complement regular seiken strikes alots, as they offer reach at from different positions, where hook can't reach.
I train them both on heavy bag as well every week as par of my standard striking set. I also do the arm strike on th bag. I enjoy doing them. If you mix seiken and open hand strikes it also tend to confuse your opponent, as most do only fists.

 

[Fungus94]

One trapping I do often, is I approch the opponent and use a palm strike with my read hand to their lead hand/guard and at the some time as i load a oroshi tsuki to the chest/collaar bony (this is the friendly sparring version, the nast version for SD could probably be a fist or palm strike to the head)