full time FMA school?

[MJS]

what i say and how to hear it is internal for both you and me. i belive that the martial artist today, especially the FILIPINO martial artists, is so far away from the physcial toughness that can come from training he is very soft on the inside, so he wears his toughness on the outside.

"soft insides"--means, your feelings get hurt easy. take it how you want.

so anyway, my point is not that if you do the art part time you are less of a martial artist than the full time guro. my point is that the filipino art cannot grow with most of our so-called masters being part time masters. they do not have enough time to develop skill to a respectable level, and they have to limit how much teaching they can be for the students, and finally, in our image to the public, we will be seen as only add-on styles, because we treat our arts as add-on arts.

training in an art full time means you are training your arnis/eskrima FULL TIME, not for part of a workout a few times a week, not for a few minutes a day, but a few hours a day. now if one guy practices his strikes 2 hours a day, and the next guy practices two hours a week, there is going to be a huge difference in skill level. this is the difference between average skilled people representing the art, and great skill representing the art. we have too many average skill people calling themselves masters who represent this art.

now the next question is, define skill.

but first we have to ask, skill in what? my definition is skill in striking--power, speed and accuracy, and skill in fighting--ability to land, evade, stop and take shots. everything else is not as important. but to some people, skill means, can he do drills and neat disarmings. well, you can teach a monkey to do sinawali and he will be no different in ability than the average guy/master doing sinawali, except that the monkey will be stronger and less intelligent.

now to answer the question about me having to see every martial artist to make a judgment. no, that is not necessary. i have seen more FMA than most people on this list, and i can tell you that most of what i seen is poor quality, and many of these people are advertise as MASTERS.

so back to my original post, bob hubbard was sad that it seemed the forum came down to a place to post youtube videos and seminar ads, but people are not offering valuable talk about FMA. so i offered some, which in a way is also an explanation to why the FMA is losing popularity, and why there isnt much talk these days about it. the truth is, most FMA people knowledge in these arts i seminar based, part time learning and training, so this is the side dish to karate, kenpo, tae kwon do, kung fu...

And once again, I'm saying that you can't fault someone who chooses to have a regular 40hr/week job and teach a few times a week. You cant expect everyone to run a FT FMA school, saying those people are not any good. Perhaps you can explain just how many hours a week you teach, how many hours per day, from what time to what time, etc. I say this because IMO, even if you claim that you have a school, but are only teaching 2 hrs a few times a day, well, that IMO, does not constitute as being FT. Why? Because if thats what you're doing, you're doing nothing different than the people who teach for 2-3 hours a few times a week, out of their house.

As for this section being slow and quiet...its the same thing in the Kenpo area. Here are a few reasons why:

1) Its not a topic that people want to talk about.

2) Certain people may come on and post, but leave when people start questioning what they say. Personally, I see nothing wrong with asking questions, because thats how people learn.

3) Certain people think theyre above and beyond everyone else, thus they choose not to be bothered by posting.

Perhaps, if you're that concerned about the well being of this section, then you can share some of your infinate wisdom with the rest of us, and start topics on various techniques, etc in the FMAs. IMO, thats more productive than telling someone that they are no good because they dont run a school.

 

[Rich Parsons]

yes, i believe in them, because i been running one for 18 years. only three years ago, i added kung fu. not because i just became a black belter in it, i known kung fu all my life, but first i only taughtit privately and then started doing classes a few years ago because my city doesnt have many good schools (we really only have a couple and rest they are kenpo or franchises). but filipino martial arts is been my full time thing since i open my school in 1992.

Kuntawman,

I make my money as an engineer, and my passion is FMA. I have only really studied FMA, and those are the only two systems I teach and seriously train in (* Modern Arnis and Balintawak *) I have been involved formally in FMA since 1986. All this just to give you my data to understand my points.

i know some teachers who been teaching almost as long as me in community centers and they are very, very good arnis men. its hard business. we have to compete against karate people, kids, soccer, now mma, tae bo, stuff like that. but there is enough people who want to study traditional eskrima full time but what can they do if FMA is only one or two days aweek in a TKD school? or 20 minutes of time in a JKD class? anytime you start a business its going to be scary, but what is more scarier, to lose $5000 in money (that you probably going to make in one or two months with a "real" job) or to face another man who wants to beat you up? so we are brave enough to fight a man in hand to hand combat, but scared to lose a wallet in business doing what we love! hmmph!

Well, for those that are feeding other mouths they may take a less secure path that leads to more probability of them being able to feed them and keep them in a house with heat and water. But being single I cannot use that arguement.

I understand your point of offering more times for classes. My seniors opened a full time school locally and they did not get students. Location and economy also make a big point in the business. There were other schools at one time that taught FMA locally, but they closed up as they seemed to have burned out their presence the local population. So when tye opened theirs up and even with little or no real competition in FMA they still not keep it open for very long. We had continued to keep our time at a local Co-op where we had rented mat time. We ended up back there for all of our classes as no one came to the full time school.

I think some of it was location. I think a lot had to do with people not having disposable income. My local city has been in a recession since 1991 and that was only after it came out of the last one before that in 1989. (* about 18 to 20 months *)

Today in our area the TKD schools charge at most $75 a month. The market is real down here and many of those have to offer pre-pay or autopay deals and get it down to $59 a month to keep students, and they only have 20 to 30 students versus the 150+. I have also seen three other schools close up in the last two years of TSD, Hapkido, TKD.

if you look in any city you will find at least 1000 students learning street self defense of some kind. krav maga, cqc, something. add eskrima / arnis / kali and now we probably have another 1500 - 2000! how many full time FMA schools do you see? probably none. i am lucky, in my city i have two, me and doce pares. its really a thing, do you love the art enough to make a living from it, its not mcdojo just to pay the bills with your art or even to make a good life from it. and you can do it full time without selling dvds and black belt in 8 sessions.

I compete against people who have certs and ranks in every art that is popular. They get crossed ranked and then start to offer the art. When it begins to drop off they bring out an old one or the next "hot" one to market and try to keep students just to keep thei doors open.

I do not see the numbers that you are describing even if I counted all of the After School and Summer Camps for kids as serious students.

so if we have 3000 students in a city that want serious martial arts and self defense, and you are the only man in town with a FMA school. lets say your lazy and dont do any kind of advertising, you going to get 1% of them, probably, 30 students. charging 100 bucks a month, thats 3000 dollars. a small shopping center is going to cost you about one thousands a month maybe fiften hundred. no employees, you are only teaching one or two hours a day, thats not bad, 2000 bucks huh?

As stated before, I think this is about location and availability and disposable income. Which lots of people do not have.

but work a little harder and get that number up to 50, 100 students, and now we are talking a 90 thousand dollar job, and you dont need college, not even good english, to make this kind of money. you dont need a kids class, you dont need afterschool karate, and you dont even need tae bo.

When the market is rolling good, and the people have disposable income, I coudl see this. I really can. If you subtract out rent and cost for materials and loans for initial equipment, and other costs you still have enough moeny for a single person to live ok and for it to be added to a second income to do ok as well for a family.

i was on the modern arnis forum and i see that bob hubbard said the site became just announcement for seminar, and i agree so maybe we can talk about how the FMA can grow as a respectedart. it will grow with respect when we have lots of good talented students. the best way to help our students get better is when we have a place they can train every day if they want. YOU will be a better teacher when you dont have to work another job and you can teach 7 days a week with no worry about how you going to pay bills.

Respected art and growing. Using forums for more than just advertising.

I agree that is a good goal and godo to talk / write about.


My problem is the racism from Filipino's who look at my Anlgo heritage and assume I have nothing to offer and insult people like me. The only way tey are interested is if I am willing to join their organization and be under their organization and leadership. I can learn from almost anyone and have no problem giving credit to those who have taught me or helped me, but for others to take credit for my skills and insight is something I do not like.

Of course there are many who are good, but there are just enough bad apples to ruin the pie.

But I think having a discussion like this allows for people to express their opinion on the subject and to possible offer assistance to those thinking about opening up a club. It gives them items / points to think about and ask questions about. That is good.


On a side note, I have seen many who teach 7 days a week to be able to pay their bills and eat, stagnate, as they just teach basics which is good, but they are not improving their timing nor are they working out for themselves, they coaching and teaching others. Teaching does give insight and does help a lot. I 200% agree with that. I just think that one should mention that besides the mental problem solving and the verbal explanation getting better, they also need to make sure they "pay themselves" and train for themselves a little as well.

Now back to me and the arts I teach. There are those that teach Balintawak to large classes. There are some that do it in Seminars, and even myself, I have used the seminar format to give introductions, but I prefer and believe the best and strongest manner is one on one instruction.

This business plan does allow for the garage and backyard instructors to still be good and teach, but does not make it great for renting store frontage. But the method I am describing is prohibitive and restrictive to business, and most would not consider it. I know some who do the full time schools and seminars and do ok for themselves.

I do hope that the economy and market for amrtial arts turns around locally to allow for more to open a school and address the populations need.

 

[chris arena]

Although I am in favor of seeing more "full time" FMA schools, the economy as Rich had stated does have a serious impact on anybody running a school today. In my area of Tacoma, Wa. it is almost impossible. Datu Kelly Worden sank a ton of $$$ in a school a while back only to have to close it at a huge cost and drain on his expenses. Luckily he has a great double deep garage and things are still rock'in with him. I teach a class for a bunch of friends on the other end of town and after 3 years with them we have only a small FMA group and although the owner of the school is a highly qualified Isshan Ryu 5th degree with 40 years experience as well, we are in a survivor mode and have been practicing without heat this winter as we simply cannot afford to turn it on. As for myself, I also teach on Saturdays at a friends gym that he lets me use for free. I do not advertise and only have a few students. But for me it is all I want. Even the Tai Kwan Do schools are down in enrollment and about 1/2 of them have shut down as well.

But at least I am getting in front of people two to three times a week and banging sticks. I attend seminars when available and am still having a lot of fun training and learning as I teach.

I still think that a market for growth is there. As I mentioned ealier, I really like the way that Datu Dieter presents his art in Germany and the obvious enthusiasm that all of the satallite schools generate. The visual results of thier videos express this. Poor economy or not. People will come if they want to and simply put, we are not getting to them.

As far as skill. I am a fair technition, but do not consider my self some sort of bad ***. Yes, full time participation may help make me a bit better, but then it would become a j.o.b. and like Rich states: "I already got one of dose". My part time FMA work is done out of love of the art and just pure Fun. Also, I'm in my 60's. I'll let the young puppies play that game. But, if some of my enthusiasm rubs off on them and gives them the motivation to carry on, then I'm a happy man.

 

[thekuntawman]

thekuntawman,

Are you still operating out of Arlington? If so, where's the full-time Doce Pares school? Are you referring to the Patalinghug's school in Pasadena? If so, it's important to bear in mind that they're teaching taekwondo as well. More than fifty percent of the time, according to their current schedule. That said, they are very dedicated to FMA. They've been heavily involved in WEKAF for years. Their school has been operating full-time since 1989. And they do a very good job of promoting FMA.

I was just curious. If you aren't referring to them, I was unaware of a full-time Doce Pares school in the Northern Virginia area.


Stuart

here in sacramento, there is a full-time doce pares school. the owners do not do any style except arnis.

yes, i still teach there, but in alexandria now, near ft belvoir.

 

[thekuntawman]

Maurice-

I'm curious how you define "FULL TIME". How many hours a week is it open?
Is your school your primary source of income? Is it enough to support you and your family?

full time, just means a regular martial arts school with classes at least 5-6 days a week, offering day and night classes. yes, my school supports me, and its supports me since i first opened in 92. we had some problems a few times here and there, but many businesses do. i only added children classes a few years ago, i had tae bo in the late 90s, but the school been a full time adult FMA school since i started. we have stages, and right now, we are in a muay thai stage, where my senior guys are tired of point and continuous fighting, so now we fight in muay thai competition. (i dont teach muay thai, btw). i have a few guys doing mma also. there is so many ways to make a living in traditional, adult martial arts school, we just have to find new places, just like with any other business.

 

[ap Oweyn]

here in sacramento, there is a full-time doce pares school. the owners do not do any style except arnis.

yes, i still teach there, but in alexandria now, near ft belvoir.

I'm in Alexandria myself. Off of Duke St., near Landmark.

 

[thekuntawman]

And once again, I'm saying that you can't fault someone who chooses to have a regular 40hr/week job and teach a few times a week. You cant expect everyone to run a FT FMA school, saying those people are not any good. Perhaps you can explain just how many hours a week you teach, how many hours per day, from what time to what time, etc. I say this because IMO, even if you claim that you have a school, but are only teaching 2 hrs a few times a day, well, that IMO, does not constitute as being FT. Why? Because if thats what you're doing, you're doing nothing different than the people who teach for 2-3 hours a few times a week, out of their house.

As for this section being slow and quiet...its the same thing in the Kenpo area. Here are a few reasons why:

1) Its not a topic that people want to talk about.

2) Certain people may come on and post, but leave when people start questioning what they say. Personally, I see nothing wrong with asking questions, because thats how people learn.

3) Certain people think theyre above and beyond everyone else, thus they choose not to be bothered by posting.

Perhaps, if you're that concerned about the well being of this section, then you can share some of your infinate wisdom with the rest of us, and start topics on various techniques, etc in the FMAs. IMO, thats more productive than telling someone that they are no good because they dont run a school.

MJS, dont get mad, but i hear some insecurity in your posts. i am only giving advice, and not putting people down, except to say that most FMA people i met have poor skills. but if it makes you feel better MOST martial artists i seen have poor skill. you dont have to see very martial artists, because i am talking about the ones i seen.

so i am not saying people who do FMA part time are not good, i am saying thay cannot give there skills enough attention to become the best they can be. i cant explain it no more, so thats the last i will say about that.

at night i teach 2 - 3 hours a day, on saturdays i teach 5 hours, sunday i teach 6 hours, and monday to thurs i teach 1 hour in the morning, except for private lessons, which i have at least 5 - 10 hours a week that i do. i teach FMA every day, only about have of my students are kung fu stuents, and only 4 of my private lesson students are kung fu. full time school is not 40 hours a week. full time school is a every day school of martial arts with a normal schedule.

i stopped posting on the forums a couple years ago, because i get tired of FMA get offended at every advice i give, and everything i say makes people feel like i am talking to them, putting them down. when i talk about skill, i am talking about fighting skill. i dont like sinawali, i dont like drills, i dont believe in teaching full curriculum by seminar. when i post things about the martial arts, is because i really want to make a change, and sorry, we are all grown up i shoulndt need to rub peoples back like a child to tell them, your training is failing you. the filipino martial arts in the west has the biggest number of people who cannot fight, even tae kwon do has more fighters. but people in this style like to do what they want, they believe everything said in a seminar or DVD and anything else is different. you guys go back and read about posts from 10 years ago when i said, there is no kali/panantukan/kinomutai in the philippines. everybody was saying "you dont know what your talking about/theres 80 languages in the philippines/dan inosanto says its so". people dont like to hear another view than there own, and espcially here in the west, people get very angry to see or hear another view.

the only reason i came was curiosity, and of course i have a few students who read these forums who mail me stuff all the time asking me to post. well i dont anymore because i get bored with the back and forth with people i know would never talk like they do in person its a waste of time, so i put my response to there questions on my blog (my student mike rewrites all my postings). but the reason i posted here was that i agree with bob, that is sad for the forums to become a very selfish place for people who are not sharing knowledge just exchange compliments and butt kisses, and talk about, look how great i am, buy my tapes! attned my seminar! look at my youtube!

 

[thekuntawman]

as a muslim, i am not interested in those cds, like tony robinson, and some motivational speaking. my wife listens to those, where the guy goes "you can do it! belive in yourself!" i believe that if you pray, make charity, treat people food, your honest, and believe in the creator, then you will always believe that you will be successful. you get what i call the midas touch, everything you do will work out. when people do not give God what he wants, life is now up in the air for failure or success and you are in the mercy of the world--economy, education, stuff like that.

after all of that, i have schools in the past that did not do good. this is why i rent out a hotel conference room for my satelite in DC area, instead of sign another lease and screwed up my credit. this is not lack of faith, it is success in baby steps, and its smart business.

but too many people kill there business when its still in the womb,,, just a thought,,, and they never even give themself a chance to success by saying, its never going to work. when a man says that, then he is right, its never going to work. a couple times, i got a job when enrollment got low, but it really hurted my school, because there was no one answering the phone or putting up flyers. to make it in business, you have to plan for the worst business environment, then work like failure will not happen. not, "can not", i said "will not", because can not means you have no choice. will not mean, your not going to allow it to happen. this is why foreigners can come here with no education, sometimes even dumb foreginers, will come here and make a living, where every day i have guys even some of my own students, 22, 23 years old whos dad pays there tuition because they cannot go to college and wipe his own *** at the same time. i seen men 30 years old who live with there parents, but almost all the foreigners i know, take care of parents with low paying jobs (some have 2 and 3 jobs). there is so much opportunity to do good here in the US, people have to go after it and make there own success, and dont worry about "if there is a market" for what you do. when remy presas came here, i'm sure they told him, the martial arts world is full. but he made his way. when i opened for the first time, i was told by a bunch of people, can do it without kids, contracts, blah blah blah. my little dingy school helped three of my brothers and sisters (and two ex-wives) go to college, and built my mom a house. and i cant even spell right.

so a school closing doesnt mean the market is dead, just like a lost fight doesnt mean you have no skills! there are many people who do it every day, the teacher has to prepare his business skill, just like he prepares martial arts skill for self defense. i know that in small cities its hard, but lots of good teachers and good businessmen is in those small cities. lito lanyada had a school in virginia beach back in the 90s, a small city, and he always had more than 50 students. i think many business people fail because they have other option to put food on the table, for some of us, its either work in a gas station or janitor, or do what we know. even if you have a second job, and you want to teach fulltime but you can only do a part time, then when you are off work, push your school like that full time job dont exist. but i think this is a topic for a new thread, you think so?

 

[ap Oweyn]

To the original point: Running a martial arts school, it seems to me, is like running any other business. A certain percentage of your time is going to the administration of the business, which is not training time. A smaller, part-time operation likely won't have as much administration. Virtually none, in the case of those groups who meet up in the local park or back yard. I'm also not convinced that all teaching time constitutes training time. There's always a balance between being mindfully engaged in your own progress and that of your students.

I think the benefits of a full-time school to the students is clear. A dedicated practice space with specialized equipment in place. You can attend multiple classes in a week. And just come in and train with one another even when classes aren't scheduled. I certainly think my FMA training was at its best when I was at a full-time school. But that has as much to do with my age (and, consequently, my obligations elsewhere) as it does the school setup.

I think a permanent school also offers a more submersive learning environment. Something as simple as seeing the rows of WEKAF helmets stacked up puts me in the mindset to train hard. And you don't necessarily get that when the entire "school" comes and goes in a series of duffel bags.

That said, the part-time teachers I've met and trained with (Guros Roman Picardo, Pat Finley, and John Jacobo) have all demonstrated a keen dedication to the art. In part, in fact, precisely because they are heaping that role on top of full-time responsibilities elsewhere. Here are guys who equip, train, and support their students in competition, often at considerable personal expense (both monetarily and in terms of additional time away from family). I don't think that their dedication to what they do can really be questioned.

I do think there's a market for full-time FMA schools. My primary FMA school was a full-time establishment, even if it wasn't full-time FMA. (In other words, the staff and equipment were in place for FMA training, even if the class currently on the mat wasn't an FMA class.) I think there are hurdles to overcome, however:

1) The basic fact that FMA is less well recognized, and therefore less well understood, than other styles. If someone hears "karate," even the least informed consumer has a general sense for what they're in for. FMA teachers have an added stage of public education. In some sense, that's probably easier with a full-time establishment. Because you've got the context there. You could have a library on-site, cultural trappings, etc. Things to give FMA a context that people can wrap their brains around (aside from things like "remember that pool cue fight in that one Steven Seagal film?")

2) Weapons first. This is a hurdle for various reasons, from people wondering what good that does them if they're not walking around "strapped" to parents concerned that their youth (if not flat-out kids) are learning to use weapons. Again, I think public education is helpful. Fencing, for instance, doesn't carry any stigma, despite being entirely weapons based. I've never heard a parent with reservations about their child learning fencing. There are clear differences in presentation between fencing and eskrima though (despite the relation between the two).

3) Related to 2, I think people want a clear empty hand component. Having a well-developed empty hand curriculum is vital, it seems to me. The audience associates martial arts, very often, with the ability to defend oneself without weapons. And, from a practical standpoint, I think that does make sense, given that many of us don't walk around armed.

I think all of these are resolvable through public education, which is of course the name of the game anyway. Anyone actively involved in doing that, on whatever basis, is doing good work to my mind.


Stuart

 

[MJS]

MJS, dont get mad, but i hear some insecurity in your posts. i am only giving advice, and not putting people down, except to say that most FMA people i met have poor skills. but if it makes you feel better MOST martial artists i seen have poor skill. you dont have to see very martial artists, because i am talking about the ones i seen.

LOL, I'm far from insecure. I am more than confident in my FMA training, and Im more than confident in my teachers. My issue, is that your posts give the impression that anyone who does not own a school, and teach FT, isn't any good. With that, I beg to differ. My teachers have been training for many years, and represent the art of Arnis very well. If thats not good enough for you, oh well.

so i am not saying people who do FMA part time are not good, i am saying thay cannot give there skills enough attention to become the best they can be. i cant explain it no more, so thats the last i will say about that.

LOL, I find this laughable because their skills are just fine.

at night i teach 2 - 3 hours a day, on saturdays i teach 5 hours, sunday i teach 6 hours, and monday to thurs i teach 1 hour in the morning, except for private lessons, which i have at least 5 - 10 hours a week that i do. i teach FMA every day, only about have of my students are kung fu stuents, and only 4 of my private lesson students are kung fu. full time school is not 40 hours a week. full time school is a every day school of martial arts with a normal schedule.

Thanks for clarifying that.

i stopped posting on the forums a couple years ago, because i get tired of FMA get offended at every advice i give, and everything i say makes people feel like i am talking to them, putting them down. when i talk about skill, i am talking about fighting skill. i dont like sinawali, i dont like drills, i dont believe in teaching full curriculum by seminar. when i post things about the martial arts, is because i really want to make a change, and sorry, we are all grown up i shoulndt need to rub peoples back like a child to tell them, your training is failing you. the filipino martial arts in the west has the biggest number of people who cannot fight, even tae kwon do has more fighters. but people in this style like to do what they want, they believe everything said in a seminar or DVD and anything else is different. you guys go back and read about posts from 10 years ago when i said, there is no kali/panantukan/kinomutai in the philippines. everybody was saying "you dont know what your talking about/theres 80 languages in the philippines/dan inosanto says its so". people dont like to hear another view than there own, and espcially here in the west, people get very angry to see or hear another view.

Perhaps you should put more thought into your wording if you dont want people to be so upset. IMO, by not teaching the full art, you're short changing your students. The siniwalli and other various drills teach certain things, however it is up to the students and teachers to expand upon this. I stick spar. One of my teachers has backgrounds in other arts, other than the FMAs, so we would also work on fighting skills, such as punching, kicking, clinching and grappling. Many of the teachers in my org. come from a LE background, so they always add in their real world experience as far as weapon work goes.

This statement that I just quoted with you saying the underlined part is a perfect example of you assuming things that you dont know. Until you've seen every FMA person out there, dont assume you know what they do and don't do.

the only reason i came was curiosity, and of course i have a few students who read these forums who mail me stuff all the time asking me to post. well i dont anymore because i get bored with the back and forth with people i know would never talk like they do in person its a waste of time, so i put my response to there questions on my blog (my student mike rewrites all my postings). but the reason i posted here was that i agree with bob, that is sad for the forums to become a very selfish place for people who are not sharing knowledge just exchange compliments and butt kisses, and talk about, look how great i am, buy my tapes! attned my seminar! look at my youtube!

People that would never talk that way in person? Again, an assumption, because yes, I would talk that way and I do. I'm sorry, but for years I used to sugar coat things. No more. I call a spade a spade and if it pisses someone off, too damn bad! Its one thing to talk smack about someone for the sake of making that person look bad. Its another thing if what you're saying is fact. That being said, if I think something is BS, I'm gonna say it. Sorry to sound like a dick, but it is the way it is.

This forum is open for anyone to post, so feel free to post away.

I've been training for a bit over 20yrs now. I always give 100% with what i do, especially when I teach. I've received many compliments on the things that I teach. However, I'm not trying to impress people with rank. IMO, how you teach, how well you understand and can apply the material...that IMO, is what matters most. I enjoy training, and God willing, dont plan on stopping anytime soon. If I can share the art of Modern Arnis, that was taught to me by my teachers, with others, even if its 1 person, then I'm making a difference. I'm giving back to the art that I love.