frauds

[Bujingodai]

I didn't say I wasn't given the title.

pardon me Senseiship, I'm being laman trying to explain something.

 

[Nightingale]

I didn't say I wasn't given the title.

pardon me Senseiship, I'm being laman trying to explain something.

so in your style, a "Senseiship" is something official?

The way it was explained to me is that "sensei" is not really a formal title, but a description of a relationship between a student and teacher, a word that is supposed to be bestowed by the student, and that it would be a misuse of the word for someone to introduce himself as "Sensei John Doe" or the like.

Does your school use the term differently?

 

[MisterMike]

A definition I have heard of Sensei is "one who has been before". I'm curious where you learned that martial art students give this title to their teacher, and why a person cannot refer to themselves with this title.

TIA

 

[stephen]

A definition I have heard of Sensei is "one who has been before". I'm curious where you learned that martial art students give this title to their teacher, and why a person cannot refer to themselves with this title.

TIA

It's like me calling myself Steve-san. It's just not done.

Steve

 

[Bujingodai]

First I don't introduce myself as that. Second, one can always make a mistake in ethics. It is just the title that is there.

But thanks for the lesson, it is always good to learn.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

artyon:

 

[Nightingale]

I first had the term explained to me when I was hosting a Japanese exchange student when I was in college. I had a tournament one weekend, and Yuko came with me because she wanted to watch. During the middle of the tournament, a gentleman stepped up to the microphone wanting to make some kind of presentation or acknowledgement. He introduced himself as "Hi, everyone. I'm Sensei John Doe." and Yuko started giggling. I asked her why, and she explained that in Japan, it is rude to call yourself a "sensei" and that the term "sensei" is placed after the name, rather than before, so Mr. Doe would have been "Doe Sensei" had someone else introduced him, but when introducing himself, he should've stuck with "Hi, I'm John Doe" or "Mr. Doe."

It has also been comfirmed multiple times on this forum. Here's one example from this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=40610&highlight=sensei+correct#post40610

Titles such as shihan, kyoshi, renshi, hanshi, etc., are used only in written documents pertaining to that person. They are not terms to be used in verbal address, and it is considered impolite in Japan to do so.

Of course, it is also impolite in Japan to introduce yourself as "Sensei X," or (even more humously) "X Sensei."

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Jeff, how about this one...Binary Four.

 

[Don Roley]

I guess it begs further explaination due to the fact I am not a fraud and not lying about any of my past.

Yep, not one lie or dishonorable action. You called yourself sensei, but that is just a mistake, and I think if we shot everyone who made such mistake there would be a lot less martial artists out there.

Before anyone jumps on Dave, I want to point out that he has never acted without dishonor of made claims that he refused to later back up. I disagree with him on a lot of things. For example, I think that people should probably wait until they have menkyo kaiden in ninjutsu and reach age 50 before they start their own style of ninjutsu. But just because Dave does not follow
my opinion on the matter does not mean I think anyone should be even hinting that he is a fraud.

 

[Bujingodai]

Well as I had stated, it wasn't my intention to start anything. It just happened, simple as that. That sounds like a very weak explaination, however commonly a series of events will cause a situation in the end. With that being said, I am not stopping what I do. I do intend to continue training so that I have more to offer as the years go on.

But much appreciated of your words. :asian:

 

[gozanryu]

Don, by your inferrence, you are suggesting that I have made another profile to support myself!? Ha, please, don't you know me well enough? I am plenty pushy by mayself. DOn't flatter yourself so mush. You, and I , and anyone else who has a little education, knows your logic id flawed. If you purport yourself an expert, you can be ex[ected to substantiate it with credentials. You are just a coward., and thats OK. Not everybody can admit when they are wrong, or expose who they really are. Techno, even though that pic was ripped, it's good work! She (the Photagrapher) has skills.

 

[tshadowchaser]

MOD WARNING:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

This is you 2nd warning

tshadowchaser
MT MOD

 

[gozanryu]

Sorry Mod. MY second warning? Are you saying that I and only I have been less than cheerful in this discussion?

"I am sure that a little lack of personal integrity " DOn Roley"
"Truely, you have no honor" Don Roley



And Don

"I point out that Phelps makes claims of being in the CIA, but there is no independent proof and you asked us to prove Phelps claims by looking at the book he wrote"

with this line of reasoning, there is absolutely NO PROOF that you hold the ranks you say you do in Japanese language. It's not posted here. It has not been verified by an independent. etc.
If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .I think even you can follow me here. So, what I am saying is, he has WAY more proof of his accomplishments available than say, YOU do. If you cannot concede this one poiont, then it is clear that you are arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[Nightingale]

MT MOD NOTE:

mod warnings posted in threads are directed at the entire thread, not only one individual. Individual warnings are done through private messages and are generally not made public.

Nightingale
MT MOD

 

[Don Roley]

You, and I , and anyone else who has a little education, knows your logic id flawed. If you purport yourself an expert, you can be ex[ected to substantiate it with credentials.

Boy, you are really getting vicious. Not to mention playing fast and loose with the truth again.

I have never said I was some sort of expert (straw man fallacy), and the claims I make about my Japanese language ability can be checked at any Japanese consulate. You do not have to go through me, you do not have to visit my web page, you do not to buy my book. You can do it on your own by claling the local consulate. The same goes for me living in Japan for years. Tony Kehoe can verify that he has seen me here for years, various Bujinkan members can say the same, etc.

It is this type of thing that I call independtly verifiable confirmation. And there are numerous things that Phelps, Mark Saito, McGovern and yourself have claimed that no one else can verify in the same manner that my credentials in the language and resident status can.

 

[Don Roley]

To get back to what Dave was talking about at the beggining of this thread, I now ask you Dave why you would want to train with frauds.

I ask you to remember a quote by humorist Dave Barry. If someone is nice to you and nasty to the waiter, he is not a nice guy.

I am sure that groups like the Saito ryu are friendly and flattering to you Dave. They probably make you feel pretty good. They want you to associate with them and honey gets more flies than viniger.

But have you bothered to see how they act towards anyone who disagrees with them? Is this the type of behavior you want to see in people you associate with? And they are not just yellow belts hiding behind a screen name. They are highly placed guys doing what they do on boards that their leader is a member of and able to see.

Dave Lowry, Wayne Muromoto, El Guapo-san, etc. If you say their story stinks, they attack with real viciousness. Let me remind you, Muromoto said he did not believe that Saito learned his art from his grandfather as he claims, but offered to look over the research McGovern claims he has and revise his opinion if warrented. Instead of turning over the research, McGovern said that Muromoto hated non-Japanese because he described a common attitude towards gaijin in in an article using the term "Cheese smelling gaijin." But he himself uses terms for homosexuals that are hate filled. And he has tried to deny it here, then he tried to push it away by saying he has never been "politically correct."

Are these the types of people you want to associate with? You stay away from the collective for the same type of stuff. I know they treat you decent, but if you disagree with them, do you think you won't be treated the same way? Even if you never come to that, why train with people who always go on the attack when their egos are pricked?

I would be interested in hearing you answer.

 

[gozanryu]

Don, I think your use of the term "viscious" is a ploy to catch the Moderators attenton. There is absolutely nothing viscious about my last post. You see. I don't doubt your language proficiency. Your argumantal logic is what I say is flawed. I have already offered to send you a book, free, if you agree to send it back to me. So, your petty argument there is flawed, and false. What you are asking me to do is do-diligence to verify your claims, well, guess what, your own logic would dictate that you do the same. You totally dodged my question and comment.
"If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .I think even you can follow me here. So, what I am saying is, he has WAY more proof of his accomplishments available than say, YOU do. If you cannot concede this one poiont, then it is clear that you are arguing for the sake of arguing.
Yesterday 05:24 PM
It is unfortunate that you are so weighed down with your ego. You might actually be able to move forward. You totally wasted your post trying to convince me of something I have already agreed to, several times. You just dont have the personal confidence necessary to approach this fairly. I really feel sorry for you. You are so frightened. What you are calling "independent verification" of you, is exactly what you HAVE NOT done of Phelps. But I will say this, you do a good job of hiding. I really hope that one day you can face yourself. Viscious Don? Really? You obviously have NO idea what viscious means. You think that if I had VISCIOUS intent towards you, I would be typing to you? You are sadly mistaken there. Do you feel I view you as some sort of threat, or enemy? You are wrong if you do. You would find out rather quickly, and a long time ago, if that is how I felt. Your capacity for self agrandizing is truly amazing. And if you bothered to actually read my posts, you would see that "we" rarely have problems with those who "dissagree" with us, only those who attack us. You personally attacked Shannon Phels Sensei, 10th Dan, I have NEVER done anything like that, ever. And if you actually asked people, in ernest, you might fing you are not the kind of person they want to be associated with. (and me too, most likely)

 

[Don Roley]

What a long post on just how much of a doody- head I am.

The fact is, Frank Dux also has a book that has pictures in it, etc. So, I do not trust anything like that. Uniforms can be bought, etc.

And let us not forget that in terms of stories, Phelps has made claims of reciving lessons by means of dreams, etc. His claims of fluency and experience with Japan, etc have just fallen flat with everyone who has lived in Japan, etc. So we are not dealing with a person we should trust to do the right thing anymore than Frank Dux.

What I am talking about in terms of independent proof is if I could call the CIA Public Information Office and ask them if Phelps was a former member. Steve McGovern said they would, but that turned out to be false.

And if you want to attack me and ask me to back up claims, there is a thread over at e-budo now for that. You do not have to divert attention away from the subject here anymore. Unless, of course, you intention is to divert attention as Technopunk and others have pointed out.

 

[Don Roley]

"If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .

The more I think about the above quote, the more alarms go off in my head.

Frank Dux also has photos in his book he says are from his days in the field with the CIA. So you are using the same type of logic he uses. SOF used professionals to prove that most of the photos are fakes. So photos can be faked, and I am not a photography expert.

But the content of what Ken wrote just sets off alarm bells. If Phelps had a picture of him underwater with a submarine, how the heck are we supposed to identify him through a wet suit? And we know he went through SEAL training.

Are we to believe that as a CIA anti-terrorism agent (which I hasten to add the CIA will NOT confirm) he went to Lybia and had pictures of him taken while there? Considering that we are not friendly with them, it seems unbelievable that he would be overt about himself, and a covert operative taking pictures of himself? And how are we to really know that the photos really are of Iraq, Lybia, etc unless they are pretty identifiable land marks like the pyramids of Egypt? How are we to know the Kyber rifles is what he says it is, instead of a stage set? And there is ways of faking photos. Anyone ever see that picture of the guy on top of the World Trade center with the jet coming in behind him?

Oh, and you can by surplus uniforms at swap meets.

I recall that Phelps has a photo of him and Hatsumi on his site and tries to claim that a Bujinkan instructor invited him to Japan and he had a long talk with Hatsumi on the issue. The thing is, the Saito ryu has refused to give the name of this shihan who supposably made the invitation,a nd my friend showed Hatsumi the photo of them together and Hatsumi said he could not remember who the guy was. So, I tend to not beleive the photos people put in books, and the logic of a deep cover operative in lybia taking tourist photos and the like just sets off too many alarm bells in my mind.

 

[gozanryu]

Don, you REALLY want people to believe that photos of Phelps being commisioned as an officer are PHOTOSHOPPED? Photos of his ordination in RENTED robes? Are you nuts? Hahahahahah you have got to be one of the Strangest cats on this planet.

"So we are not dealing with a person we should trust to do the right thing anymore than Frank Dux."

Who asked you to trust anybody? You asked for proof, there is proof, it is just inconvenient to your argument to face the truth. RENTED UNIFORMS!? LOL I can just imagine a guy flying over to Vietnam as a youth, finding his way into the bush and asking the SF CO if he could possibly have his photo taken at the firebase because he's got to get his rented uniform back stateside! DON. . . do you really think that everybody but you is stupid? Why are you trolling for the moderator? A "doody head" did you really just say that? . . .doody head... haha you are as transparent as a pane of glass Don. one more time

""If their are photos of Phelps in Syria, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Libya, and Iraq and he is in them, he most likely didnt take them himself. If , in the photos, he is in a US Military uniform, he most likely did not get it from a swap meet. If he has pictures of himself being ordained, he most likely did not pay the Bishop off for the Photo op. If there are pictures of him signing the Guest Book at the Khyber Rifles, he was there, if there are underwater pictures of him and a submarine well. . . .I think even you can follow me here. So, what I am saying is, he has WAY more proof of his accomplishments available than say, YOU do. If you cannot concede this one poiont, then it is clear that you are arguing for the sake of arguing. "

I was kinda getting the idea you are mostly sharp, then you go on this pre-school bent. Do you realize how you sound when you do this.

How old are you Don? WHat is your rank in the Bujinkan

What are your degrees in?

What Universities did you get them from.

Who is your Sensei?

I ask, because you brought up the point yourself. I, under your rules, must now take the information you will furnish (because you cannot be trusted) and research it. I will do that Don. Give me the list, and I will independently verify each item, as per your request.

"uniforms can be rented"

oh my lord Don, answer the questions for goodness sakes. Quit playing around.