What's with the inconsistency?

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

OK, guys. My exposure is minimal, but those of you who have traveled to Japan or attended the Tai Kai dealio's in the past have probably seen what I'm kvetching about.

I spent 1 weekend looking for a bujinkan or related indie-school to train at, and visited no less than 4 seperaste groups. Just comparing 2 illustrates the point.

Group 1: 10th Dan with multiple long-time training rokudansha leading group. 6th's can barely roll out in any coordinated looking way, and seem unable to even remotely mimic simple techs with the swords that bigger bro just brought back from Japan (isn't this, like, year of the swords?). 10th does well; the others look like...well...lost. I see a 6th dan in kenpo or karate, judo, etc., and there is an authority to their motion, as well as an ability to assimilate new information presented in the style that they've been practicing for, lo, these many years. Was enough to make one regret any training associations, no matter how distant, with the guys in black pajamas. (Makes one ask: With skills this bad, why aren't they extinct?)

Group 2: BJK breakaways, with top boy weighing in at 5th. Outstanding ownership of material; natural talent, combined with good training and guidance. Still talks to the guy who sues people for their hats, and works with his blessing, but it not a dues-paying member of the ryu.

Why does this unaffiliated Godan rock, while affiliated seniors blow? What's with the inconsistency?

Honestly, not meant as an inflammatory flame (huh? that confused myself). As sincere question...are there generational differences surfacing in the Kai already, while the Soke still breathes?

In frustrated, baffled humility,

Dr. Dave

 

[heretic888]

One could pose the equally telling question: are all "uber-ranks" in other martial art styles the epitomes of prowess, grace, and skill??

The answer, without doubt, is an emphatic no.

In every martial art style, without exception, there are the awesome and the crappy at all levels of rank. This isn't anything new. Nor is it by any means unique to Ninpo.

Of course, it depends on large part on what your personal standards regarding "great" in martial arts is in the first place. I think you'll fiind a wide divergence of opinion no matter where you go...

 

[Cryozombie]

Why does this unaffiliated Godan rock, while affiliated seniors blow? What's with the inconsistency?

Honestly, not meant as an inflammatory flame (huh? that confused myself). As sincere question...are there generational differences surfacing in the Kai already, while the Soke still breathes?

In frustrated, baffled humility,

Dr. Dave

Please keep in mind, I am just a lowly 7th Kyu, so this is just my observation... I have trained with 3 Bujinkan groups, and noticed a difference in the way all 3 train.

In they Bujinkan schools, emphasis is placed on "Feelings" and understanding the "feeling" of a specific technique over the actuall application of the technique. In 2 of the schools I have attended we would work on a technique one day, and then move on and not see it again... we were graded on how well the instructor felt our movement was... not on out ability to mimic a technique. In my current school, there is a set "curriculum" of techniques, which you need to know for each Kyu, in addition to having an understanding of the movment and good Kame, but I feel our Ukemi is lacking... the students at some of the other schools I attended had very very good ukemi.

In addition, when you talk about Kempo, or TKD, or whatnot, those styles have a set "Standard" for ranking. If Student A can mimic Technique A, B,C he/she can be graded up a rank, and the students can stand in a row and exectue a "syncronized Kata" and look like a machine... While Bujinkan training seems more about knowing how to move, so you can't judge them the same way.

Anyhow... what I'm saying in my long winded fashion is IT SEEMS TO ME grading in the 'Kan is based not so much on a set ability, but on a feeling of ability. I know that makes no sense, but I cant think of a succinct wording for it...

 

[Shogun]

Student A can mimic Technique A, B,C he/she can be graded up a rank, and the students can stand in a row and exectue a "syncronized Kata" and look like a machine... While Bujinkan training seems more about knowing how to move, so you can't judge them the same way.

I've noticed this, that in BOTH Ninjutsu/taijutsu and Aikijutsu, the rank is more personal. That when one understands what they are doing, they advance in rank. They don't neccesarily have to do it perfectly. This may take more or less time to move up in rank.

I put Ninjutsu/Taijutsu together as one name, because what I've found is that most schools in my part of the state (a whole "2") don't practice weapons, or barely practice weapons, yet still call themselves "Ninjutsu".

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Everyone,

This topic is always a can of worms!!

Anyway, many schools place a high degree of freedom on the "feeling" aspect of training. Many do not a have a structured curriculum from which a student will have a firm grasp of the fundamental aspects of training in order to progress to higher levels, and remain competent in the ability to make the techniques work.

Over the years many new students see how the "master" (irregardless to a particular style) may move at 60 or 70, and start to train and move as he does now, without putting the hard work and effort that it took to reach that level. This scenario plagues many systems. Think back upon Ueshiba Sensei , Takamatsu Sensei, Hatsumi Sensei, Oyama Sensei etc. etc. They all undertook rigorous physical training but yet transcended this as the continued their training and aged.

Bufu Ikkan
Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net

 

[MisterMike]

Hello Everyone,

This topic is always a can of worms!!

Anyway, many schools place a high degree of freedom on the "feeling" aspect of training. Many do not a have a structured curriculum from which a student will have a firm grasp of the fundamental aspects of training in order to progress to higher levels, and remain competent in the ability to make the techniques work.

Over the years many new students see how the "master" (irregardless to a particular style) may move at 60 or 70, and start to train and move as he does now, without putting the hard work and effort that it took to reach that level. This scenario plagues many systems. Think back upon Ueshiba Sensei , Takamatsu Sensei, Hatsumi Sensei, Oyama Sensei etc. etc. They all undertook rigorous physical training but yet transcended this as the continued their training and aged.

Bufu Ikkan
Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net

Is this the place right next to autodesk? :ultracool

 

[[email protected]]

Hello Michael,

Yes it is!

You are always welcome to come on over and try out our classes. I look forward to meeting you soon.

Bufu Ikkan
Steve Lefebvre

 

[r.severe]

What's with the inconsistency?

This has been pondered for years in many different if not all martial arts..

Reason one, fighting experience of the teacher.
Reason two, sparring experience of the teacher.
Reason three, maturity of the teacher.
Reason four, physical qualities of the teacher.
Reason five, resons why the teacher has students.

These are just a few...

I am a student of the Bujinkan systems.
My soke of these systems said he has no fighting experience to speak of.
But this does not mean he doesn't have knowledge of the systems.
This doesn't mean he is not a wonderful example of how to live happy.

I feel it is a matter of what you search for.

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[Bujingodai]

Unfortunatly with any large system as you have with the Bujinkan as well. There are people that will pass themselves off as teachers, some that became lucky to get the promotion that shouldn't have etc etc etc. I have trained at multiple Kan school. I have yet to run across any consistancy, no mind you that speaks of creativity etc. Making the art you own so to speak but it does hurt quality control.
Also Hatsumi Sensei has made statement to the fact that there are 50% good and 50% bad in the Bujinkan, a way of seeing who is real and not I guess.

 

[r.severe]

Hello David...
I'm not sure if 50% is good and 50% is bad...
That would be an opinion if experienced personally.. by each and everyone of us.

I personally have seen 100's of Bujinkan students at many many seminars, well taikai and dojo acroos this USA and even Japan...
I would say 85% poor...
Not that they are mentally unfit.. but physically unfit because of their training methodology... very poor.. to the point of fantasy power rangers.. or something like that...

But please take this to heart.. this is ONLY my opinion..
Many will also say I'm a jerk and a fool..
But I walk and talk like everyone else.. nothing special... only I have fighting experience to view and make an opinion on that basiis.. then on the baisi of the knowledge of the tenchijin of the Bujinkan Dojo methods..

Take for example..
I have seen many who are wonderfully beautiful with form and such with well over a godan in ranking..... but can't spar... unarmed or weaponry.. and I fear what would happen in a true conflict with them...
I have seem some with no form and no skills... at all... who can beat up their teacher in seconds..
I would say it rally is a personal thing.. what we see and feel about what we experience...
I went to Japan.. it was weak and way un-realistic for me.. but for others it is the truth.. SO..

I fell this is the inconsistency.. everyone sees...

ralph severe, kamiyama

 

[shiro]

It comes down to one thing. You are responsible for Your own rank!
If the belt and stripes are all the people who know who they are in their hearts want
That is fine with me. I myself Have pick another path.Each their own.
Train Hard, Be real.
Good Day

 

[r.severe]

shiro,
The problem is not to simple to cover up with a few words...
If there was not a problem then there would be no need to cover it up..
It seems to be a problem because the ranking and structure of the Bujinkan is always covering its self.
Always.
I am one of those who do not have a simple answer of why the Bujinkan is in the vortex it is in.
But for sure it is in sad shape from my perosnal experience.
I'm always sad about the state of the Bujinkan because it holds a great deal of wholesome goodness within it...

ralph severe, kamiyama