fook sau thoughts and help

matsu

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i read in the "working on" thread that even mr mook is still working on his fook sau, so its actually a little consoling to hear that something that looks so simple is not as easy as it looks.
and as a big guy i have reeeeeeaaaaalllllll trouble getting my elbow in to centreline control when i try to use fook.
and it is becoming an issue for me in chi sau esp as i progress and touch hands with more advanced guys and sifus. they just walk thru my centre esp after a few minutes when i get tired,focus on another aspect of the roll or prepare myself mentally with a something new we're being taught...

any tips help or advice for me(esp bigger guys) to get this thing right... hell, just better!!
i had/have same problem in dan chi sau but its better with footwork as i am able to use my angles to cover up that wopping gap! lol
thanks in advance
matsu
 

dosk3n

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Yeah Im a big guy also and know what you mean. My advice is when doing the form on your own keep practicing the fook sau repetition over and over and over and over.

Also during Chi Sau ask your partner so slow down so you can concentrate on the positioning. Im sure they will be considerate.

I have noticed that when the speed of rolling gets quite high I lose my position. I know its just practice that will fix that but for now just work on position not speed.
 
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matsu

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thanks dude.
my usual partner is not training at the mo due to illness....selfish if u ask me but hey!
and we have worked thru mooks super slow chisau thread a bit and god its a workout in itself.
but ill work on the form a bit more.
i also have a dummy so i use the arm to focus onto

fanx for the input mate
matsu
 

geezer

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...as a big guy i have reeeeeeaaaaalllllll trouble getting my elbow in to centreline control when i try to use fook.
and it is becoming an issue for me in chi sau...

Relaxe, Matsu... it will improve with time and practice. And about being a "big guy"? Don't worry. I'm not a big guy and I still have trouble! But, more to the point, one of the most skilled chi-sau adepts I know is a wide man with short arms. He is also very loose, and limber in the shoulders. But even so, it is physically impossible for him to place his elbow on center the way a slender man can. But it isn't a problem for him. He explained it by saying that it isn't so much whether you can get your elbow in front of your center, as the position of the elbow in relation to the bridge and the quality of your energy... you know all that stuff like "stick", sensitivity, springy energy, and so forth.

On the other hand, my problem isn't that I'm wide, but that I've got stiff joints compounded by a shoulder injury. No, wait. Those are my excuses. My problem is that I don't train enough! Less talk sau... more chi sau!
 

mook jong man

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i read in the "working on" thread that even mr mook is still working on his fook sau, so its actually a little consoling to hear that something that looks so simple is not as easy as it looks.
and as a big guy i have reeeeeeaaaaalllllll trouble getting my elbow in to centreline control when i try to use fook.
and it is becoming an issue for me in chi sau esp as i progress and touch hands with more advanced guys and sifus. they just walk thru my centre esp after a few minutes when i get tired,focus on another aspect of the roll or prepare myself mentally with a something new we're being taught...

any tips help or advice for me(esp bigger guys) to get this thing right... hell, just better!!
i had/have same problem in dan chi sau but its better with footwork as i am able to use my angles to cover up that wopping gap! lol
thanks in advance
matsu

Its very sound advice that dosk3n gave you about repeating the Fook / Wu sequence in the form , I do that myself on occasion.

With your elbow you definitely want to have it nice and tucked in , but not to the point where your pectoral muscles and shoulder becomes tense and hard as a rock , its important that the area stays relaxed.

So just bring it in as far as you can without the muscles tensing up , over time and with a lot of SLT practice these muscles will stretch and you will be able to bring in the elbow more without getting tense.

The elbow could be a contributing factor to your problem , but it is more likely that it is your wrist .

Its possible that you have not got your wrist exactly on the centreline , its amazing how many people think their wrist is on the centreline when it is not , so that would be something to check

Another possibility is that you are losing wrist contact with your partners wrist , make sure you maintain wrist contact with his wrist at all times.
If you control his wrist you control his whole arm.

There could be a few other things wrong but in my experience its usually the two issues with the wrist that cause most people problems.

Also when you are training with the advanced guys get them to tell you how they are able to do whatever it is that they are doing to you , ask them what it is exactly that you are doing wrong that enables them to do it , pick their brains.

Don't forget , one day you will be one of the advanced guys and you will be throwing some other poor bastard around.
 

hunt1

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This may sound a bit out there but it will work if you try it. Don't force your elbow into a position. Think it there. Mind intent is what you need to use. just focus your intention on where you would like your elbow to be.
 

yak sao

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Relax. if you worry too much about structure then your arm is basically a wooden dummy arm just sitting there all stiff and hard ( and motionless)

I try to relax my fook (while at the same time keeping forward pressure) as if it were a wet towel hanging over my partner's arm.
 

coffeerox

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This may sound a bit out there but it will work if you try it. Don't force your elbow into a position. Think it there. Mind intent is what you need to use. just focus your intention on where you would like your elbow to be.

that's the Chu Shong Tin method :)
 

Domino

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Also during Chi Sau ask your partner so slow down so you can concentrate on the positioning. Im sure they will be considerate.

I have noticed that when the speed of rolling gets quite high I lose my position. I know its just practice that will fix that but for now just work on position not speed.

I found this to be helpful, asked one of my older brothers to slow down a little bit and help me with positioning and changing.
Also depending on lineage, there can be a traditional fook sau and a modern version of fook sau.
 
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matsu

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Also depending on lineage, there can be a traditional fook sau and a modern version of fook sau.

can you clarify more of this please mate?
is this how you are taught or is this one of "those"" teaching statements lol.
for example my sifu asks us regularly where does a bong need to be?
our expected answer is "wherever it needs to be"..., there is no fixed position its just a shape to deflect ... end of!

and with everyone. thank you very much i have almost too much to think about when i try for a "simple" fook lol

matsu
 

Tensei85

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I found this to be helpful, asked one of my older brothers to slow down a little bit and help me with positioning and changing.
Also depending on lineage, there can be a traditional fook sau and a modern version of fook sau.


I think its important to note that "伏手" fuk sau is an important concept of (Subdue or Control) so in itself can have different facets or expressions to represent this concept. That's why we see a lot of different versions some use a vertical position with wrist position controlling, some use a more horizontal position as commonly seen in SNT/SLT, I've even seen a diagnol position.

So personally I would say not to worry so much about the imagery but pay attention to the mechanics & principles, Keep those in mind & you can't lose.

Side note, haha I'm still working on my fuk sau too, maybe we should start a club or a rehab perhaps?


Good luck!
 

Poor Uke

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i read in the "working on" thread that even mr mook is still working on his fook sau, so its actually a little consoling to hear that something that looks so simple is not as easy as it looks.
and as a big guy i have reeeeeeaaaaalllllll trouble getting my elbow in to centreline control when i try to use fook.
and it is becoming an issue for me in chi sau esp as i progress and touch hands with more advanced guys and sifus. they just walk thru my centre esp after a few minutes when i get tired,focus on another aspect of the roll or prepare myself mentally with a something new we're being taught...

For some people it just isnt physical possible to do. Do not force this position as will introduce to much rigidity into your structure. Instead take your own advice

.... better with footwork as i am able to use my angles to cover up that wopping gap! lol
thanks in advance
matsu

I know quite a few well built fellas who have the same problem. Working on turning and sarn bok ma really helps plug these holes.

Good luck!
 
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matsu

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Working on turning and sarn bok ma really helps plug these holes.

thanks buddy.. can you translate and expand on this please?

i know i have to bear in mind i have probably only done about 4 -5 solid hours of chisau in total and the whole hour i did with one of the sifus completely changed my way of thinking and feeling,so there is plenty of time but i,m impatient lol.
and sifu told me i think tooo much hahahah
matsu
 

Poor Uke

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and sifu told me i think tooo much hahahah
matsu

Dont think feeeeeeeeeeel :ultracool

Working on turning and sarn bok ma really helps plug these holes.

Changing the angle of your centre line changes he angle of the attacking line in chi-sau. Something better demonstrated than explained (I have rewritten this 3 times now :) ). Basically use angles to narrow the gap rather than trying to force your body do something it cant do.
 

chinaboxer

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it's really hard to say without seeing you perform the movement...put up a small video of you doing dan chi sau and try to get several angles for us to see, don't forget the feet as well! - Jin
 
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