FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all

[moromoro]

Now i have seen it all, in karate sometimes many western students come up with there own names for their styles, and they do this at an early rank and then get there students to grade them!!!!!!

well this is happening in the U.S in some FMA,

an example of this may include a 6th grade teacher who began his own board the students on that board ( all junior in rank to him) have decided they should grade him 7th grade.....................................


hmmmmmm

how would you feel to get graded by your students....this is a downright joke and it makes me sick, but i cant help laughfing....
but my question is if the students grade him can he grade the students,

what about if his students include a 5th degree a 4th degree 3 second degrees and a first degree,

wow all of the students add up to a 16th degree a super GM......

what is your views on people getting graded by their juniors or by their students.....


thanks
terry

 

[Tapps]

I believe there have been 3 such promotions in recent months in Modern Arnis. All senior students with respectable credentials.

Who do you have an issue with ?


How do you propose promotions continue in an art with no legitimate Grandmaster ?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I believe I know to whom pureblood is refering to...

what he of course isn't aware of is that at least 2 grandmasters were also involved in that promotion from 6th to 7th.


Hey Terry....before you get your panties in a knot...yes, they were Fillipino GMs....1 of his own family system with extensive Modern Arnis background.


Given that most promotions past 3rd have little basis on skills (IE the majority dont test for those ranks) and are time in types, whats the big deal? You would prefer they just self promote themselves? Or, should they do it old-school style, you know, in the city center at noon, with the theme from a Clint Eastwood movie blaring? :rofl:

 

[Disco]

In referance to No Legit Grandmaster available. I would suggest and I repeat, Suggest. For promotion(s), instead of students(?) ranking the Instructor, the instructor rank himself. *(Explanation) -
The Instructor should be at the very least be one rank, preferably two ranks above those below him. To my knowledge, that would/should be the standard. Don't know where this "standard" came from, but it does sound feasible.

Mr. Mo - welcome back! (play nice now)

 

[Cruentus]

man, you are really lookin' to get spanked....

 

[bart]

well this is happening in the U.S in some FMA,

moromoro,

Have you ever even been here in the US? There are mcdojos all over the world including the Philippines. There's a wealth of training to be had in the Philippines and I would recommend going to the Philippines to everybody that studies FMA. But still you find good, bad, and medium level teachers everywhere that you go.

I'm not a big fan of "rank" in the first place, but rank over a certain level really is political in a sense. It's a guage of how you are respected within that internal community. Also, your students can get better than you. If they do, they deserve a voice and having them be involved in the promotion is a way to give them a respectful way of control in the upper echelons of the organizations.

an example of this may include a 6th grade teacher who began his own board the students on that board ( all junior in rank to him) have decided they should grade him 7th grade.....................................

Funny, but if you bump up the grades a bit to the collegiate level, it would exactly mirror graduate studies. This is precisely what happens, epecially in the case of a second PhD, etc. As students advance, they gradually become peers of their instructors. Sometimes, they surpass them or are found in positions of power over them. It is all a part of development within rigid subjective academic structures.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

It's funny how people start trouble when I'm out of town. I'll be home in a couple of days so I can address this better. Remember this, Dr Gyi (GM Bando) and Bong Jornales (GM Arnis-Sikaran and Modern Arnis Datu) signed my certificate with thier endorsement.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Considering some of the stories and boasts made by those in the Phillipiens about there backgrouds and the number of accomplishment they have made, both past and present, I think moromoro should look at those in his own country befor talking about people else where.
There are McDojo's everywhere.
It is easy to make claims about someone else and the rank the may or may not hold when you do not have to face them face to face.
Personaly I dont see where anyones rank in a system that you are not in should be challanged when you are half way across the world from them and have not a clue what they do or do not do.
Moromoro if you want to know more about me I'm in the members area or you can go back and read my comments and threads in the Fma section. Look good you'll find refrence to what I have said earlier in this post.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by moromoro
1) Now i have seen it all, in karate sometimes many western students come up with there own names for their styles, and they do this at an early rank and then get there students to grade them!!!!!!

2) well this is happening in the U.S in some FMA,

3) an example of this may include a 6th grade teacher who began his own board the students on that board ( all junior in rank to him) have decided they should grade him 7th grade.....................................


hmmmmmm

how would you feel to get graded by your students....this is a downright joke and it makes me sick, but i cant help laughfing....
but my question is if the students grade him can he grade the students,

4) what about if his students include a 5th degree a 4th degree 3 second degrees and a first degree,

wow all of the students add up to a 16th degree a super GM......

5) what is your views on people getting graded by their juniors or by their students.....


thanks
terry

Terry,
I added numbers to your comments above so that I can address them individually.

1) I formed my own karate style back in the middle 1970's and called it American Freestyle Karate, wrote a best selling book on the subject and was a national fighting champion for many years to boot. It was done not so that my students could then promote me. Do your research history and you'll find that I was a respected champion and nobody who gave me any crap about it .

2) I did the same by announcing my own style of my instructor's art, Modern Arnis 80. I got permission from him in 1998. I was already a senior player in his art and not some nobody who is in search of extra paper. In fact, I am probably the most senior active American student of Remy Presas in the US.

3) Grow some balls, man, and name the person. That's Tim Hartman you're referring to and if you are going to say it, say it fully. Also, before you blow steam in his direction, do your research and find the facts. To my knowledge, the advisory board made the announcement but two Grand Masters in FMA made the call. Tim will post the particulars when he feels like it.

4) You're getting ridiculous.

5) Finally, a serious question. My personal opinion is that juniors don't promote someone to a senior rank, period. If you have no seniors in your specific art, you go to an organization which has seniors of like kind or outside an organization to a senior of like kind and get the promotion that way.

Actually, I like what Choki Motobu did according to Peter Urban's book, "The Karate Dojo." Before he died he went insane, declared himself 11th dan and the greatest warrior on the planet.
(N.B. That's what the book says - I don't know if it's true or not.)

From a different thread, why were you suspended? It's obvious. You don't state with either logic or passion. You state with either hatred or arrogance and you're dripping with disdain. Unless someone calls you on something you come on like everyone in the US know nothing or are phony. Only when someone goes nose to nose with you do you ever write with anything less than that attitude. That you are sincere about your art and training is evident. Your manners, however, leave much to be desired.

Perhaps it is the fact that on the internet you don't have to watch what you say because you might have to back it up physically. Maybe because of the internet we can't see that you are having fun and mean no insult by what you write. Don't know, can't say. I'm not there when you write your message. If you come to America, however, and want to do seminars as you stated in a past thread, look forward to empty halls unless your public attitude changes. Trust me on this one. I learned that lesson the hard way.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Tapps
I believe there have been 3 such promotions in recent months in Modern Arnis. All senior students with respectable credentials.

Yo! Tapps,

There's Tim in the US and Dieter in Germany. Who is the third?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Cruentus]

There was that spanking I was looking for..... !

Amen Dan A.

 

[Matt Stone]

In response to the implication that McDojos don't exist in the PI...

For what it's worth, I remember reading one of Mark Wiley's books about his research in the Phillipines, and a comment was made at one point that an instructor was asked to teach a particular art to someone. That instructor replied something to the effect of "I don't know what that is, but if you have the money, I'll be happy to teach it to you!"

It happens everywhere. Congrats to the WMAA folks for trying to remain true to their inheritance as well as remain progressive and continue advancing into the future without falling victim to the lack of ethics that other folks have. By having a council make the decision, rather than allowing Mr. Hartman to emulate Patton and promote himself, lends legitimacy to the organization's actions.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

You are often the voice of reason when the threads get hot. As a WMAA board member and supporter, I would like to say thanks!

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by PAUL
You are often the voice of reason when the threads get hot. As a WMAA board member and supporter, I would like to say thanks!

No worries, brah!

I don't know Mr. Hartman. Gotta say that the first time I saw him on video, I really didn't think that his voice went with his face...

I do know one of his students (who taught me Modern Arnis in Japan) pretty well and consider him one of my best and dearest friends. If he thinks Mr. Hartman is legit, so do I.

While I have trouble with both juniors promoting seniors, and persons outside an art promoting someone in an art that they themselves do not study, this is one rare and exceptional case where it can be seen to be the only possible choice...

Congratulations, Mr. Hartman. Well done.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[moromoro]

the truth hurts as i can see.....

a lot of good points but people took this the wrong way just read my post and i did ask legitimate questions, now people are on the defensive, because i sparked up a issue which people wanted to keep under a rug.........

Look

That you are sincere about your art and training is evident. Your manners, however, leave much to be desired.

i speak how i see it... but i have a pure heart...

Perhaps it is the fact that on the internet you don't have to watch what you say because you might have to back it up physically. Maybe because of the internet we can't see that you are having fun and mean no insult by what you write.

dan like i have stated i have an open door policy on challenges, in cebu and in OZ.....Navarro system...... just bring a certificate and some cash i got the video camera.......

also the doesnt have to be names,

as this was just a question

if something like this happend to tim i would love to hear his views about it,
why did he accept the promotion???
when he was promoted by his juniors and or by other people outside the art???
is promotion so important to him????
was beign a 6th degree for the rest of his life to bad for him to cope with????

its all nice and good sopporting people but again when someone has done wrong/different we want answers................


thanks

terry

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Terry,
based on your questions on Budoseek, I'd say you have a fixation on Tim. I don't know why......

This question on the surface is innocent, but given certain things, is quite loaded as a nasty shot at a few individuals, and I have to believe its Tim. Why? Because you've never seemed to want to take a shot at Deiter, and the whole 'Jeff Delany self promoted from 5th to GM' things been beaten into the ground along time past.

Why did Tim do what he did? Ask him.

As to the "wrongness"....
Since the death of GM Parker, the Kenpoists have been promoting similarly. Other arts have done it as well.
This wasn't a 'student' promotion, but a peer promotion, aproved of by several established and respected Grandmasters of their own systems, who were also very familiar with GM Presas. Both the man, and his art.

Who do you goto for a promotion so you can continue to grow the art, when there is no one of a higher rank qualified to promote you?

As to you, don't insult our inteligence by playing dumb.


Heres your post on Budoseek:

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by moromoro
the truth hurts as i can see.....

a lot of good points but people took this the wrong way just read my post and i did ask legitimate questions, now people are on the defensive, because i sparked up a issue which people wanted to keep under a rug.........

Look

i speak how i see it... but i have a pure heart...



dan like i have stated i have an open door policy on challenges, in cebu and in OZ.....Navarro system...... just bring a certificate and some cash i got the video camera.......

also the doesnt have to be names,

as this was just a question

if something like this happend to tim i would love to hear his views about it,
why did he accept the promotion???
when he was promoted by his juniors and or by other people outside the art???
is promotion so important to him????
was beign a 6th degree for the rest of his life to bad for him to cope with????

its all nice and good sopporting people but again when someone has done wrong/different we want answers................


thanks

terry

Terry,

Heck maybe Im wrong by getting into this argument and being serious but I really think you are missing the point. Its not whether you asked Legit Questions or not.....its the way you say it. Now, I aint gonna lie to you, you have a very in your face way of saying things.....If you think it aint worth **** then you will say it aint worth ****. And plus no one here is complaining about your questions.....its more your accusations and tone that there whining about! Now the problem with saying you have Open Door policys to Dan like that (Who apparently from what I have heard is V. Good) when YOUR in Australia and hes in the U.S.A is that its pretty hard to prove....heck whos to say that you dont run a Mcdojo yourself and that the West is running it the proper way? And about Tim.......Why wouldnt he accept the Promotion? To be honest I think to a point Promotion is important to everyone.....and heck I would settle being a First Degree for the rest of my life....But if he got offered it I still cant see a point in saying no. I still also have yet to see what has been done wrong and WE dont want answers......You do.

Btw.....The truth hurts? When you start speaking it I'll tell you

 

[Cruentus]

You see....this is what I was talking about it the "questions" thread regarding you and the manner in which you post. You say that you are just asking legitemate questions, and that your intentions are "pure." Reread what you wrote originally. Here, I'll break it down for you...

"FMA MCDOJO now i have seen it all"

You have already started with an insult before you even asked your "innocent questions".

"Now i have seen it all, in karate sometimes many western students come up with there own names for their styles, and they do this at an early rank and then get there students to grade them!!!!!!

well this is happening in the U.S in some FMA,

an example of this may include a 6th grade teacher who began his own board the students on that board ( all junior in rank to him) have decided they should grade him 7th grade....................................."

So far, moromoro, these aren't questions. You have thusfar made hasty generalizations, and you don't even know what your talking about. So far, this first post doesn't sound like your innocently asking anyone anything.


"hmmmmmm

how would you feel to get graded by your students....this is a downright joke and it makes me sick, but i cant help laughfing....
but my question is if the students grade him can he grade the students,"

There...finally a question. You've asked 1 question so far, and only after you've completely loaded it, then followed up with your own biased opinions which are based off of limited knowledge of the situation.

"what about if his students include a 5th degree a 4th degree 3 second degrees and a first degree,

wow all of the students add up to a 16th degree a super GM......"

Now, as Dan said, your just being ridicules. This doesn't even pertain to the situation.

"what is your views on people getting graded by their juniors or by their students.....


thanks
terry"

O.K....you asked one question that COULD have been valid there at the end, except you clouded it with all your other crap. And whether this was intention or not, Kaith now just exposed that you truly are a coward. You are trying to pretend like you have no specific intentions here, you don't name specific names, but the proof is there that you have been milling around the net trying to get information off of Tim Hartman so you could start S**t. That's cowardly. Get a life.

Now in terms of clarification on the issue, this is true; the public has the right to know. This issue has been clarified in previous Threads already in the Modern Arnis Forum and elseware already. If you or anyone else would like a further explaination, then ask the question LIKE A GENTLEMAN, and with an open mind. I'm sure when Tim returns he'll have an answer, if the question is asked appropriatly. Perhaps other WMAA members would be willing to express their side as well. You aren't going to get a decent conversation out of anyone, however, if you don't change your tactics.

Shape up, moromoro, or ship out.

Paul

 

[Master of Blades]

Originally posted by PAUL


Shape up, moromoro, or ship out.

Paul

And hes putting it nicely......:shrug:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by moromoro
1) the truth hurts as i can see.....

2) a lot of good points but people took this the wrong way just read my post and i did ask legitimate questions, now people are on the defensive, because i sparked up a issue which people wanted to keep under a rug.........

3) Look
i speak how i see it... but i have a pure heart...

4) dan like i have stated i have an open door policy on challenges, in cebu and in OZ.....Navarro system...... just bring a certificate and some cash i got the video camera.......

also the doesnt have to be names,

5) as this was just a question

if something like this happend to tim i would love to hear his views about it,
why did he accept the promotion???
when he was promoted by his juniors and or by other people outside the art???
is promotion so important to him????
was beign a 6th degree for the rest of his life to bad for him to cope with????

6) its all nice and good sopporting people but again when someone has done wrong/different we want answers................


thanks

terry

Terry,
As usual, you have demonstrated a talent for completely missing the point.

1. What truth? I see only opinion and bombastic statements.

2. Nobody is getting defensive but rather counter-offensive. There is nothing anyone has attempted to sweep under any rug.

3. If you had a pure heart, you wouldnt be so much on the attack.

4. You think I'm going to go all the way to Australia just to meet you and bring cash and a certificate just to meet you, let alone challenge you? You're living in a dream world, pal. Now you're getting defensive.

5. When you finally asked a question, sure, no problem. Ask Tim for the answers to your questions. None of us can answer for him.

6. Has something been done wrong or have you jumped to conclusions before getting all the facts?

Look at your original post. Attack, ridicule, challenge and then finally questions. The manner in which you communicate pisses people off. Plain bad manners. If you skip all the other crap and ask questions, they deserve to be answered and minus all the horse$h!t you included in this thread, you posted a very good question.

Yours,
Dan Anderson