Five Animal Kenpo with Sijo Trevor Haines

[Citius]

“When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make.

A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there." - SGM Ed Parker

I believe him. Change is inevitable. Change is Progress. SGM Ed Parker worked on a video series. He must have found wisdom in that pursuit. Even if some of his finest students do not agree. If he had lived to see the Internet move into the private sector perhaps he would have embraced that technology also.

 

[Doc]

“When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make.

A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there." - SGM Ed Parker

I believe him. Change is inevitable. Change is Progress. SGM Ed Parker worked on a video series. He must have found wisdom in that pursuit. Even if some of his finest students do not agree. If he had lived to see the Internet move into the private sector perhaps he would have embraced that technology also.

I was in the video and did the announcing. I know what he wanted to do with video, and it was NOT to promote people or give them rank. Technology yes. Rank, hell no.

By the way that quote is the header on my website.

 

[Citius]

Then teaching Kenpo by video or "distance learning" is not what you detest, but that a rank of any kind is obtained by such an education. That clarifies things for me and I do not feel our opinions are in utter opposition. Semantics are a tricky beast. You have my respect and admiration, although I sense that means little to you. I am compelled to state it anyway.

 

[Simon Curran]

By the way that quote is the header on my website.

Off the subject of the matter in hand, but what is the address of your website sir, I have tried fruitlessly several times to search for it.

 

[Bill Lear]

I was in the video and did the announcing. I know what he wanted to do with video, and it was NOT to promote people or give them rank. Technology yes. Rank, hell no.

By the way that quote is the header on my website.

I have to say that I agree with you there sir. I think its fine to have a video program to assist someone with their training, but the thought of completely replacing student/teacher interaction with a video training/testing program is absurd.

:idunno:

 

[Bill Lear]

Off the subject of the matter in hand, but what is the address of your website sir, I have tried fruitlessly several times to search for it.

I think the address is: http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo

 

[Simon Curran]

I think the address is: http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo

Thanks, that did it.:asian:

 

[Doc]

Then teaching Kenpo by video or "distance learning" is not what you detest, but that a rank of any kind is obtained by such an education. That clarifies things for me and I do not feel our opinions are in utter opposition. Semantics are a tricky beast. You have my respect and admiration, although I sense that means little to you. I am compelled to state it anyway.

Communication like this is always tricky. As an educator I recognize learning takes many forms, however obtaining certification or a diploma in the field we practice by "distance" is like become a lifeguard over the internet. I suspect we are more on the same page than not. Thanks much.

 

[Mark Weiser]

To give an example in this area of discussion. In distance learning (in my case) I learn to mimic the movements via video but to understand them and to fully learn these techniques. I will be traveling once a month to my instructor for a full three days to glean as much Knowledge as possible.

During these weekends if my Instructor sees that I am ready for testing then I will test in person. For some of us there is no other option but to either relocate or travel to a great kenpo Instructor.

Oh by the way the family ( Wife and I ) are in serious discussion of doing so I can attend classes on a daily basis.

 

[The Kai]

Mr Weiser

I beleive that this is the best option for those you have to distance learn. I applaud your dedication and determination

 

[Doc]

For some of us there is no other option but to either relocate or travel to a great kenpo Instructor.

I used to write tickets to people who said,"But there was no place to park." I always corrected them and told them, "What you mean is there was no place convenient for you to park. I happen to know there are a lot of parking places in this city, but you wanted the one that was easy for you and close." They got the space they wanted, and it was expensive, and they still can't park there. We can all make excuses to do what we want to do. Mr. Parker always said, "People only do two things in life. What they WANT to do and what they HAVE to do." The Goldendragon traveled to Pasadena not because he wanted to, but because he had to. Of course he could have just bought a video, but that's a personal decision.

 

[kenposikh]

Hi Citius,

a couple of questions

you said

He is considering a distance learning program and is currently in development of such a program. The program will require an annual pilgrimage to test in-person to attain certain ranks. There will also be a requirement to test by video for each rank. This is as good as one can expect from distance learning.

How critical will these grading be for example yellow belt sorry you did not have full control of your opponent or nah that ain't no 45 degree cat your hips are way out of alignment and ends up with a crap front snap kick, go away practice and resubmit. I'm afraid that I don't personally see this as being the case

Indeed most people take martial arts because they enjoy the discipline, excercise, self-defense skills and the spirituality of martial arts.

The discipline also involves the humility to be able to take critique. Something I think people on distance learning courses don't get enough if any of.

This is not a critique of your instructor or yourself just a personal belief.

 

[kenposikh]

Bubba, there are men on this forum who have been tops in kenpo since you were nigh but an itch in your daddy's pants. You might seek to avoid speaking of things of which you know not. Better to keep your mouth shut and let people THINK...

And while you're at it, take some critical thinking classes so that your future posts have some sense to them. Blasting da udder guy doesn't make a point; it just makes you look silly, since all you have to say is, well, something that blasts the udder guy. Does little to address the points raised -- directly or covertly -- in the arguments or positions you seek to address.

Additionally, if you plan on holding yourself out as a qualified authority on who the windbags are on a site, and who might really know their shiznit, then you should do some research to learn...um...who the windbags are, and who knows their biz. You might not like what some of these guys are saying, but several are better positioned to offer an informed opinion than thou. Some on these boards are iconoclasts. Some are icons, having "been there; done that" and know what skeletons were buried in which closets, well before you started your jouney in kenpo.

If you haven't reached the part in your training about discernment, you might request that your teacher gets there with you sooner, rather than later.

Regards,

D.

Ditto, Do not blast the Doc till you have met him personally and heard what he has to offer, even then I wouldn't dare

 

[eyebeams]

.

 

[Mark Weiser]

Since there is only the wife and I now in the house. We are making plans to relocate to a City that has a good Kenpo School. We have narrowed down our choices to two cities. I will keep you informed.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Communication like this is always tricky. As an educator I recognize learning takes many forms, however obtaining certification or a diploma in the field we practice by "distance" is like become a lifeguard over the internet. I suspect we are more on the same page than not. Thanks much.

I think most would agree with you that obtaining certification/rank, particularly teaching grades soley via video learning/testing is highly questionable. However, for those who have years of formal training already, studying from a mixed distance/seminar and periodic (at least twice monthly) in person class instruction program seems valid - if not ideal.

When I first responded to this thread, It was to give my input on Trevor Haines, whom I knew in college. I did not realize that he was going the video route that seems to be attractive to so many kenpo stylists these days.

As to founding his own style; I'm not sure that his background is any less than the founders of many mainstream styles including EPAK. The question is (that I am not qualified to answer) -does he have the same talent/genius that GM Ed Parker, et al. had? I don't know. He's no phony, but I haven't seen him in nearly twenty years and at the time I lacked the experience to accurately rate his level. He struck me then as a very intelligent and dedicated student who supplemented his karate training with university boxing and judo courses and also was strong in academics. I have no opinion on his "Five Animal" system.

I know your comment was not addressed to me, but as I met him and am a dispassionate observer, I thought I'd comment.

 

[Doc]

I think most would agree with you that obtaining certification/rank, particularly teaching grades soley via video learning/testing is highly questionable. However, for those who have years of formal training already, studying from a mixed distance/seminar and periodic (at least twice monthly) in person class instruction program seems valid - if not ideal.

Anyone who has had years of GOOD formal traininig wouldn't be interested in attempting to learn by video.

When I first responded to this thread, It was to give my input on Trevor Haines, whom I knew in college. I did not realize that he was going the video route that seems to be attractive to so many kenpo stylists these days.

Yes, more so than any other style or system. I guess kenpo has less shame than the others, or maybe they genuinely believe it can work. Here's the truth and it is a very simple one. When you learn anything based on just learning the "motions" of the activity, than the "motion" can be learned from a video. So, in that sense it is viable.

My point is, if what you are learning is "motion," than you haven't learned much. The "motion" system was created from its inception to be commercially viable, and therefore out of necessity, there is a tremendous amount of information not contained therein. The majority of the recognizable Kenpo Masters today came up in the commercial product, and therefore have no sense of comparison. Yes they may be masters of the "motion" art, but that does not transcend style and substance found in the martial arts in general. "Motion" based Kenpo is in fact an anomoly in the martial arts, not the norm. The genius of Ed Parker Sr. made it viable, but no other art before or since is taught that way. That in itself should tell you something.

When Parker began studying with Chinese Masters, what he learned wasn't based on "motion." When he "dropped" people, or knocked them out, and "slap-checked," and "PAMed," etc. he was not doing "motion." What Parker drew upon for his own art, was never contained in the purposely created "motion" art. The proof is, none of these motion masters move like Parker.

As to founding his own style; I'm not sure that his background is any less than the founders of many mainstream styles including EPAK.

Well I wouldn't put him up there with Ed Parker Sr. just yet. Especially considering his base kenpo seems to be from the commercial wing.

The question is (that I am not qualified to answer) -does he have the same talent/genius that GM Ed Parker, et al. had? I don't know. He's no phony, but I haven't seen him in nearly twenty years and at the time I lacked the experience to accurately rate his level. He struck me then as a very intelligent and dedicated student who supplemented his karate training with university boxing and judo courses and also was strong in academics. I have no opinion on his "Five Animal" system.

Well, I doubt it, and if he proves me wrong I'll say so, but it is much easier to play the odds and just say "no way."

Just remember, everyone didn't come up in "motion-kenpo' which is a product essentially of the mid-seventies on. Many of us started in Chinese Kenpo under Parker, which was completely different. While Parker continued until the end working on his Chinese Kenpo, he created and sold "motion-kenpo" which he himself described as a diversion from what he really wanted to do.

The majority that started in his first "Kenpo-Karate," or his shortly thereafter "Chinese Kenpo," never learned his diversion because they knew it lacked substance. People like Steve Hearring are still doing Chinese Kenpo. However motion-kenpoit has served its purpose well, and for some it has become the norm, instead of the anomoly that it is. Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right. The real science is as complex as that.

 

[Mark Weiser]

"Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right. The real science is as complex as that."

:mp5: Video Testing and Certs

Excellent prespective and placing the subject in the correct light. I have done both routes and I tell you the personal touch or instruction of a real person in the same room is not going to be replaced by video unless we get Virtual Reality?

 

[Doc]

"Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right. The real science is as complex as that."

:mp5: Video Testing and Certs

Excellent prespective and placing the subject in the correct light. I have done both routes and I tell you the personal touch or instruction of a real person in the same room is not going to be replaced by video unless we get Virtual Reality?

Virtual reality. Whoa!

 

[kenposikh]

Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right.

No Probs Doc I'll be first in line but can I just try this little magic trick I learnt by watching a magician on TV. All you need to do is lie down in a wooden box and I use a big 2 foot blade to chop youi in half. It's that simple really.

Have practiced a lot but not had anyone willing to get in the box. I don't know why :idunno: