Fitting FMA into MMA

[Ronin74]

Hey guys. I keep going over in my mind how our techniques would translate into the competitve world of MMA. I can see very clearly that the footwork and angling will help tremedously, and there's a number of empty-hand techniques that will aid in submissions, but beyond that, what else will cross over?

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

Hey guys. I keep going over in my mind how our techniques would translate into the competitve world of MMA. I can see very clearly that the footwork and angling will help tremedously, and there's a number of empty-hand techniques that will aid in submissions, but beyond that, what else will cross over?

The weapons! :ultracool Oops, sorry, I had a brain fart moment. Um, FMA's striking, range control and counter grappling. Maybe some take downs, though not in the league of Wrestling or Judo. I doubt the ground game would be anything remotely equatable to say BJJ, so work would be needed there too.

 

[Tez3]

This is very obvious of course but don't forget it's called mixed martial arts, so take the best techniques out of any and every style you can to make the optimum mix, the techniques don't have to come from one style and just topped up by another. Look at every style and see what works for you. You wrap up all the things that work for you and it becomes your MMA style, you don't have to stay with the MT/BJJ mix if you have good alternatives, just make sure you have all the bases covered.

 

[chris arena]

I have a Modern Arnis student (Brandon) who has had his first two MMA fights up here in Tacoma, WA. As a beginner, he has to fight at least 8 fights and is limited in some techniques. After 8 fights, he then moves up to the full deal. However, He weights almost 160 lbs. Both of his fights had him paired up with 180 lb.s, both with over 8 fights. As at each time, there was nobody esle to fight. He lost both fights to a rear naked choke.

He says that for the first few fights, what ever skills you may have litterally to out the window!. The effects of the cage, the noise and distractions, along with the obvious huge adrenalin dump. After the first fight he was shocked at how big an effect this had on him. So, it takes a few fights just to get used to the energy the cage delivers on your mind.

Second fight. His oppenent was heavier, ripped muscles and more experienced. He tried to punch Brandon out, but could not touch him. Brandon broke his nose and got him into a clinch. But the beginner's rules outlawed elbows and he was taken down and had to tap out. Chalk it up to lack of experience.

MMA rules still favor the grappler. It is not street fighting. Brandon feels that on the street, the outcome would have probably been more in his favor. However, he feels that FMA has done wonders for his timing and boxing skills. When he is on his feet he is pretty hard to hit and he definately punished both of his opponents. Brandon is brushing up on his ground game, but he also feels that he will need a few more fights just to get used to the obvious rush that this sport gives the player.

However, he loves the sport and is planning to go as far as possible.

Chris A

 

[MJS]

I think that Marc Denny says it pretty good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFPO...DC0567B09&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2

 

[Ronin74]

The weapons! :ultracool Oops, sorry, I had a brain fart moment. Um, FMA's striking, range control and counter grappling. Maybe some take downs, though not in the league of Wrestling or Judo. I doubt the ground game would be anything remotely equatable to say BJJ, so work would be needed there too.

Bring on the weapons... lol, j/k.

I'd have to agree with you for the most part. There's a few FMAs where there's actually more focus on the empty-handed aspects, but they're largely out-numbered by the typical-weapon based styles.

With regards to grappling, I had the chance to take part in a seminar held by Gat Puno Abundio Baet, where we received a very short intro to Harimaw Buno. For an art that's not too well-known, I think it would make a great component to anyone's MMA game. It seamlessly combines both the wrestling and submission aspects into one form. On a sidenote, I believe the art also includes grappling with weapons. Again, this is one of those FMAs that could be an exception.

 

[Ronin74]

This is very obvious of course but don't forget it's called mixed martial arts, so take the best techniques out of any and every style you can to make the optimum mix, the techniques don't have to come from one style and just topped up by another. Look at every style and see what works for you. You wrap up all the things that work for you and it becomes your MMA style, you don't have to stay with the MT/BJJ mix if you have good alternatives, just make sure you have all the bases covered.

I think that goes without saying. This is more in regards to how a lot of FMA styles are very combat-oriented, sometimes enough so that applying A LOT of their techniques don't translate well into the sport.

 

[Tez3]

I have a Modern Arnis student (Brandon) who has had his first two MMA fights up here in Tacoma, WA. As a beginner, he has to fight at least 8 fights and is limited in some techniques. After 8 fights, he then moves up to the full deal. However, He weights almost 160 lbs. Both of his fights had him paired up with 180 lb.s, both with over 8 fights. As at each time, there was nobody esle to fight. He lost both fights to a rear naked choke.

He says that for the first few fights, what ever skills you may have litterally to out the window!. The effects of the cage, the noise and distractions, along with the obvious huge adrenalin dump. After the first fight he was shocked at how big an effect this had on him. So, it takes a few fights just to get used to the energy the cage delivers on your mind.

Second fight. His oppenent was heavier, ripped muscles and more experienced. He tried to punch Brandon out, but could not touch him. Brandon broke his nose and got him into a clinch. But the beginner's rules outlawed elbows and he was taken down and had to tap out. Chalk it up to lack of experience.

MMA rules still favor the grappler. It is not street fighting. Brandon feels that on the street, the outcome would have probably been more in his favor. However, he feels that FMA has done wonders for his timing and boxing skills. When he is on his feet he is pretty hard to hit and he definately punished both of his opponents. Brandon is brushing up on his ground game, but he also feels that he will need a few more fights just to get used to the obvious rush that this sport gives the player.

However, he loves the sport and is planning to go as far as possible.

Chris A

I'm glad your student is enjoying hinself, good luck to him in future fights too!
One thing we've been saying here about the American guys in the TUF is that they have stronger wrestling skills than the Brits because of the high school and college wrestling background that many americans have. We have no tradtion of that at all, all our martial arts are taught outside school and as a separate sport.
It's only in the past couple of years that we've been teaching MMA as a whole subject, before that everyone came from a separate martial art usually karate or TKD, sometimes Judo though and had to learn the groundwork or standup as as add on.
I don't feel the rules favour grapplers at all, there's nothing in the rules that I've seen that make me think that. I think its that theres more techniques on groundwork to stop your opponent. Standing up , you can KO them. The idea of course is too use all of it in a good game plan to stop your opponent, thats why it's been likened to physical chess. Difficult for beginners I agree.
One thing though I wouldn't put a fighter in with someone just because there was no one else to fight, thats a grave mistake. A fighter should only be put in with the fighter thats right for him and if he has to wait for the right opponent, he waits. it's simply not worth the risk of ruining a fighter. Patience is also a virtue in the fight game.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

I have a Modern Arnis student (Brandon) who has had his first two MMA fights up here in Tacoma, WA. As a beginner, he has to fight at least 8 fights and is limited in some techniques. After 8 fights, he then moves up to the full deal. However, He weights almost 160 lbs. Both of his fights had him paired up with 180 lb.s, both with over 8 fights. As at each time, there was nobody esle to fight. He lost both fights to a rear naked choke. .

Do you have any guys who know how to efficiently cut weight? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it sounds as if he's "barely" making it to 160lbs (he weighs almost 160lbs) and his opponents are 180lbs. So maybe he could cut weight to the next category down.

Second fight. His oppenent was heavier, ripped muscles and more experienced. He tried to punch Brandon out, but could not touch him. Brandon broke his nose and got him into a clinch. But the beginner's rules outlawed elbows and he was taken down and had to tap out. Chalk it up to lack of experience.

No elbows to the head from what I've read is common for amateur MMA. When / if he goes pro, I'm sure he'll be allowed it.

 

[Tez3]

Do you have any guys who know how to efficiently cut weight? Maybe I'm reading it wrong but it sounds as if he's "barely" making it to 160lbs (he weighs almost 160lbs) and his opponents are 180lbs. So maybe he could cut weight to the next category down.




No elbows to the head from what I've read is common for amateur MMA. When / if he goes pro, I'm sure he'll be allowed it.

Agree with this, it's always better to be at the top of your weight category rather than the bottom. If he needs help weight cutting I have several sources that can help.

In amateur quite often there are no strikes to the head, the next progression from amateur is semi pro rather than pro straight away.

 

[chris arena]

FMA appears to work will for standup MMP very well only if you spend much of your time doing empty hand work. My philosphy of modern day stick work is that the odds of us getting into a stick or machete fight is rather nill. The odds are far greater that you will be unarmed and the victom of a stick attack. However, we have found that stick play does wonders for your speed, timing and natural reaction to what ever is coming at you. We start our class with a stick technique, then drop the stick and work to follow the energy empty hand. The goal is to strike to lock and lock to strike. Also, we have included a lot of early Seattle pre JKD modified wing chun (Jesse Glover) into the mix that was taught to us as well by my teacher.
As far as weight, I agree with you, it wasn't fair for Brandon, but he's a fighter and there is no way he will walk away. (crazy kid). Ground skills are a must and he's working on that.

Chris A

 

[Nolerama]

FMA appears to work will for standup MMP very well only if you spend much of your time doing empty hand work. My philosphy of modern day stick work is that the odds of us getting into a stick or machete fight is rather nill. The odds are far greater that you will be unarmed and the victom of a stick attack. However, we have found that stick play does wonders for your speed, timing and natural reaction to what ever is coming at you. We start our class with a stick technique, then drop the stick and work to follow the energy empty hand. The goal is to strike to lock and lock to strike. Also, we have included a lot of early Seattle pre JKD modified wing chun (Jesse Glover) into the mix that was taught to us as well by my teacher.
As far as weight, I agree with you, it wasn't fair for Brandon, but he's a fighter and there is no way he will walk away. (crazy kid). Ground skills are a must and he's working on that.

Chris A

Yeah, I would have suggested becoming comfortable in striking/clinch/ground prior to going into a MMA fight. Lots of people want to go into the cage with the concept of their art deciding their victory, but it's not. It's your application of technique from a multitude of arts.

And it's sad when they realize, consciously or subconsciously, that their skills in their base art are never enough, and they freeze up or go to the same few moves that works for them in practice with a dead drill. They swim their punches, slop their kicks, and have no idea how to react in a sprawl...

Then when they lose, they say the fight would have been different on the street. I'm sure. But MMA is the game... Learn to play it, right?

I'm glad your friend is getting some ground tech in. Keep it up!

 

[punisher73]

The Dog Brothers have adapted their FMA to the MMA game. The have produced 2 dvd series called Kali Tudo that show that.

I have seen a clip from the first dvd, and it looked very good, but I have not seen the whole thing.

Also, Ron Balicki has a dvd series out on Filipino Boxing that shows how to do some limb destructions and gunting that might be able to be added on into an MMA gameplan. All of the techiniques shown are also shown being used in a free spar situation.

 

[geezer]

The Dog Brothers have adapted their FMA to the MMA game. The have produced 2 dvd series called Kali Tudo that show that.

This brings us back to Them's response to the OP at the beginning of this thread. As to what will cross over from FMA into MMA??? He said "The weapons". He was joking, but somehow, it's bound to happen. I teach at a high school, and when some of the 16-18 year-old boys I work with found out about the Dog Bros. on Youtube, it was like "Hey, this is freakin' AWESOME!!!". To their credit, the Dog Brothers' "Gatherings" seem to be totally non-commercial. But with the response I see from the younger generation... a paying audience is there waiting. Sooner or later the right promoter will come along, and... for better or worse... professional MMA with weapons is gonna happen. Welcome to the new Rome!

 

[punisher73]

This brings us back to Them's response to the OP at the beginning of this thread. As to what will cross over from FMA into MMA??? He said "The weapons". He was joking, but somehow, it's bound to happen. I teach at a high school, and when some of the 16-18 year-old boys I work with found out about the Dog Bros. on Youtube, it was like "Hey, this is freakin' AWESOME!!!". To their credit, the Dog Brothers' "Gatherings" seem to be totally non-commercial. But with the response I see from the younger generation... a paying audience is there waiting. Sooner or later the right promoter will come along, and... for better or worse... professional MMA with weapons is gonna happen. Welcome to the new Rome!

I should have been more specific. They use their empty hand aspect of kali and have trained it into drills and strategies to use in MMA.

 

[Thems Fighting Words]

This brings us back to Them's response to the OP at the beginning of this thread. As to what will cross over from FMA into MMA??? He said "The weapons". He was joking, but somehow, it's bound to happen. I teach at a high school, and when some of the 16-18 year-old boys I work with found out about the Dog Bros. on Youtube, it was like "Hey, this is freakin' AWESOME!!!". To their credit, the Dog Brothers' "Gatherings" seem to be totally non-commercial. But with the response I see from the younger generation... a paying audience is there waiting. Sooner or later the right promoter will come along, and... for better or worse... professional MMA with weapons is gonna happen. Welcome to the new Rome!

FMA competitions from which Dog Brothers evolved from, already use weapons. But there are limitations to ensure participants safety. Such as proper protective gear and no live blades (only shock weapons). Of course from what I've seen, Filipino's (and I'm one myself) do have a tendency to be pretty easy going and friendly people and so I doubt they'd create a contest system where the goal was to hurt your opponent (ie Roman Gladiators). Though I guess it could happen if the wrong organisation got their hands on the idea.

On a side note. Dan Inosanto is a BJJ black belt and generally cross-trains like mad. So there's no "shame" in training other styles to compliment FMA.

 

[K831]

I don't feel the rules favour grapplers at all, there's nothing in the rules that I've seen that make me think that.

Many wrestlers would fail to take me down nearly every time were it not for the rules. Downward elbows to the back of the head, neck and spine to begin with would severely limit their chances of continuing to press the shot. In addition, every time I stuff a shot the rules say I can't make them pay for the attempt with a kick or knee to the head, I have to let them get up.

I don't disagree with the rules, as I value "athletes" safety and have no desire to kill or paralyze a grappler who shoots on me in the ring (although I am glad my training in TMA prepares me to do so outside of competition) but these "safer" rules definitely favor the "gentle arts" like Bjj and most submission wrestling.

On to the OP question, my time in FMA and Kenpo as done a lot for my ability to generate power in strikes from abscure angles, and has helped me control distance and specifically angles of attack.

 

[Nolerama]

Many wrestlers would fail to take me down nearly every time were it not for the rules. Downward elbows to the back of the head, neck and spine to begin with would severely limit their chances of continuing to press the shot. In addition, every time I stuff a shot the rules say I can't make them pay for the attempt with a kick or knee to the head, I have to let them get up.

I don't disagree with the rules, as I value "athletes" safety and have no desire to kill or paralyze a grappler who shoots on me in the ring (although I am glad my training in TMA prepares me to do so outside of competition) but these "safer" rules definitely favor the "gentle arts" like Bjj and most submission wrestling.

On to the OP question, my time in FMA and Kenpo as done a lot for my ability to generate power in strikes from abscure angles, and has helped me control distance and specifically angles of attack.

This is still going on??

*sigh*... I don't think you "get it" when it comes to your perception of striker vs. grappler vs whatever.

What you're saying is basically an excuse, and this thread shows that a lot of people out there advocate learning different ranges of fighting because it would only help them.

Why deny that? Why do that to yourself?

If you're going to fight with a rule set, be the best you can be at that rule set. In a MMA fight, that means learn to fight on the ground.

 

[Tez3]

Many wrestlers would fail to take me down nearly every time were it not for the rules. Downward elbows to the back of the head, neck and spine to begin with would severely limit their chances of continuing to press the shot. In addition, every time I stuff a shot the rules say I can't make them pay for the attempt with a kick or knee to the head, I have to let them get up.

I don't disagree with the rules, as I value "athletes" safety and have no desire to kill or paralyze a grappler who shoots on me in the ring (although I am glad my training in TMA prepares me to do so outside of competition) but these "safer" rules definitely favor the "gentle arts" like Bjj and most submission wrestling.

On to the OP question, my time in FMA and Kenpo as done a lot for my ability to generate power in strikes from abscure angles, and has helped me control distance and specifically angles of attack.

You haven't watched much MMA really have you?
Have you seen the KOs? Watched the stand up part much?
In MMA you fight tactically, when your coach decides you're fighting and who you are fighting you then study your opponent, his strengths, his weaknesses and you make a gameplan. It's not like you get in there and just respond to whatever he does. I'm betting that someone will take you down within the rules! I'm also betting that you can be taken down outside the rules too.
The rules are there because it's a competition, they have rules to enable fair play and an entertaining fight.
As I said the rules don't favour any particular type of fighter, they just ensure the safety of the fighters.


Nolerama, nice post! I agree with you totally.

 

[Ronin74]

This is kind of what I wanted to avoid.

I'd like to know where and how my FMA training fits into MMA, not how it would compare in an all-out fight. MMA is as level a playing field as we can get for people of different MA backgrounds to test their skills. It almost goes without saying that no matter what a person's base art may be, they still need exposure to striking, grappling, and athletic conditioning if they actually want to survive an MMA match. My original question was in trying to figure out how to fit what I've learned into the MMA game. So far, I've found the angling and footwork, entries and reversals to carry over well. However, that's no excuse for me to not brush-up/improve/learn the skills needed in the game.

As for the rules, if I wanted to throw them out the window, I may as well bring a stick or a blade into the ring... lol. Seriously, for whatever limitations those rules bring to whatever arts, I think they're there for the benefit of keeping the athletes safe. We've seen what happens to boxers when they're pushed to the limit and the ref lets it go.