Few techniques to beat many...

[geezer]

One of the basic concepts that originally attracted me to WC (coming from a complicated, mostly phony "Shaolin style") was the idea that we favor using a few techniques to beat many. The idea is that if the other guy knows a hundred ways to hit you, you master one technique to beat his hundred. Didn't Bruce Lee use that line? Anyway, I've always admired the minimalism of good WC. Unfortunately, people seem to complicate everything, even WC, especially when more techniques translates to more money for your school.

Any thoughts on that? ...or perhaps favorite examples of a single technique that beats many attacks?

I'll start. The WC "sun-fist" punch. My dad, who knows zilch about WC (he still asks me about "that karate stuff" I do) often told me that a good hard punch in the nose sure takes the fight out of a lot of people. And, he was right. Then again he's a retired ear, nose and throat doc, so maybe he was just building his business? Regardless, I find I can counter more things effectively with just a punch than any other technique.

 

[Danny T]

And there is; "a punch is more than just a punch"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Your techniques are just your root. There are many branches that need to come out of that root.

When you apply "hip throw", you opponent can:

- spin with you,
- push you forward,
- pull you backward,
- lift you up,
- press you down,
- jump in front of you,
- stick on your leg,
- trap your leg,
- hook your leg,
- ...

When your opponent responds like that, you will need to change your "hip throw" into something else. You will need to be good in your "hip throw". You also need to be good in that "something else".

 

[Kwan Sau]

Thx Geez...this should prove to be an interesting thread!!!

My vote: a well trained pak sau & punch, combined with the relevant footwork needed at that moment. This is one of my favorites, I have several more but.......

 

[KPM]

One of the basic concepts that originally attracted me to WC (coming from a complicated, mostly phony "Shaolin style") was the idea that we favor using a few techniques to beat many. The idea is that if the other guy knows a hundred ways to hit you, you master one technique to beat his hundred. Didn't Bruce Lee use that line? Anyway, I've always admired the minimalism of good WC. Unfortunately, people seem to complicate everything, even WC, especially when more techniques translates to more money for your school.

Any thoughts on that? ...or perhaps favorite examples of a single technique that beats many attacks?

I'll start. The WC "sun-fist" punch. My dad, who knows zilch about WC (he still asks me about "that karate stuff" I do) often told me that a good hard punch in the nose sure takes the fight out of a lot of people. And, he was right. Then again he's a retired ear, nose and throat doc, so maybe he was just building his business? Regardless, I find I can counter more things effectively with just a punch than any other technique.

I agree Steve! And what you are describing is called a "stop" in the old boxing method. The second you see the opponent about to throw his punch, you beat him to the punch with a good stiff lead to the face! This was one of the core things in Bruce's JKD. And heck, just punch! Too often we see WC guys trying to do some kind of "Chi Sauey" thing when all they need to do is put together a good combination of punches! And I don't mean just driving forward with chain punches! I mean working the angles and being unpredictable just like a boxer. Say my first punch is stopped. Why go into some kind of Chi Sau controlling/trapping move if I can just punch on a different angle with the other hand!

You know, the more I think about and approach my Wing Chun as a boxing/punching method, the less and less value I am seeing in doing lots of Chi Sau. Does that make me a heretic?

 

[geezer]

OK here's another technique that beats many: The tut-sau or freeing hand movements as performed downward angle in the last section of S.N.T., or outward along centerline in Chum Kiu and Biu Tze. If applied with sufficient speed, these movements can effectively free the arm from a grapple or lock, clear the bridge, and create an opening, and strike through.

Now in my FMA training, we have worked lock flow drills that string together locks and counters. It's fun training. There are lots of locks and lots of counters, but a proper WC tut-sau and strike applied in time can take care of pretty much everything I've encountered and put and end to the flow.

BTW since the forward "freeing arm" movement is also a strike, this is really just another way of using a punch to counter other techniques as mentioned in the first post. Hmmm... One technique to defeat many. Again.

 

[Marnetmar]

When you step aside movements themselves and look at angles and motion instead, you realize what the potential of a lot of WC techniques can be. I prefer not to look at it with a raw "technique->counter" approach because things aren't really all that clear cut in a fighting scenario.

 

[geezer]

When you set aside movements themselves and look at angles and motion instead, you realize what the potential of a lot of WC techniques can be. I prefer not to look at it with a raw "technique->counter" approach because things aren't really all that clear cut in a fighting scenario.

Good point.

 

[KPM]

When you step aside movements themselves and look at angles and motion instead, you realize what the potential of a lot of WC techniques can be. I prefer not to look at it with a raw "technique->counter" approach because things aren't really all that clear cut in a fighting scenario.

That sounds a lot like what the PB guys say. ;-)

 

[futsaowingchun]

One of the basic concepts that originally attracted me to WC (coming from a complicated, mostly phony "Shaolin style") was the idea that we favor using a few techniques to beat many. The idea is that if the other guy knows a hundred ways to hit you, you master one technique to beat his hundred. Didn't Bruce Lee use that line? Anyway, I've always admired the minimalism of good WC. Unfortunately, people seem to complicate everything, even WC, especially when more techniques translates to more money for your school.

Any thoughts on that? ...or perhaps favorite examples of a single technique that beats many attacks?

I'll start. The WC "sun-fist" punch. My dad, who knows zilch about WC (he still asks me about "that karate stuff" I do) often told me that a good hard punch in the nose sure takes the fight out of a lot of people. And, he was right. Then again he's a retired ear, nose and throat doc, so maybe he was just building his business? Regardless, I find I can counter more things effectively with just a punch than any other technique.

I also was attracted to WC because it was simple but manly because I was able to use it right away. In months I was able to use it effectly in street fights and walk away with no injuries major injuries.

If a system is taught I do this technique and you respond with that technique this is where it gets to complicated for the student. I know for me that is how it was. IMO. If you show how say a Tan sao can be used in many ways the person will think in those terms instead of I do this he does that and I respond with this. So you can do more with less.

 

[Dylan9d]

I did Ving Tsun for a couple of weeks now but coming from a Indonesian martial arts background, it couldn't teach me that much anymore, I realised that all the principles taught in VT are all present in the arts I practiced. So I decided to keep doing what I was doing before VT.

So VT is a beautiful simple art, but mostly very good against untrained or other VT practitioners.

Just looking to expand my knifework now, even though I did eskrima in the past I feel that's one area that's not so good yet

 

[geezer]

I did Ving Tsun for a couple of weeks now but coming from a Indonesian martial arts background, it couldn't teach me that much anymore, I realised that all the principles taught in VT are all present in the arts I practiced. So I decided to keep doing what I was doing before VT.

So VT is a beautiful simple art, but mostly very good against untrained or other VT practitioners.

Just looking to expand my knifework now, even though I did eskrima in the past I feel that's one area that's not so good yet

WC/VT/WT includes a lot of different approaches, depending on the lineage, the school, and the instructor. Taking "Ving Tsun for a couple of weeks" is enough to gauge the feel of a particular school and whether it's a good fit for you, but it's not nearly enough time to understand the depth of the whole system!

Regardless, the gist of this thread is more about using less do defeat more, or simplicity to counter complexity. This is really more about the way you present and acquire knowledge than about system or style. You will see the same dichotomies in FMA, Silat, and just about any other system. One of my FMA instructors came from a system that began teaching with 12 strikes and 12 counters for 144 movements just to start, Then they added 12 grips, plus 12 steps, plus.... well, you get the idea. By contrast my instructor presented essentially the same material through three basic principles and then everything else falls into place. Simplicity vs. complexity.

 

[yak sao]

So VT is a beautiful simple art, but mostly very good against untrained or other VT practitioners./QUOTE]


I would believe you except I've seen it used successfully or have used it myself successfully against people trained in karate, shaolin, BJJ, catch wrestling, judo, Greco-Roman wrestling, kajukenbo, kenpo, TKD, JKD, Krav Maga, western boxing, pa kwa....I feel bad because I feel like I'm leaving someone out, but you get the idea.

The problem isn't WC, it's that people don't pressure test it like they should. Class time becomes all about theory and all of these magical ideas and complicated routines instead of just getting in there and dropping the guy with some good old fashioned well placed punches.

 

[Hong Kong Pooey]

So VT is a beautiful simple art, but mostly very good against untrained or other VT practitioners./QUOTE]


I would believe you except I've seen it used successfully or have used it myself successfully against people trained in karate, shaolin, BJJ, catch wrestling, judo, Greco-Roman wrestling, kajukenbo, kenpo, TKD, JKD, Krav Maga, western boxing, pa kwa....I feel bad because I feel like I'm leaving someone out, but you get the idea.

MMA? Muay Thai?

 

[Dylan9d]

So VT is a beautiful simple art, but mostly very good against untrained or other VT practitioners./QUOTE]


I would believe you except I've seen it used successfully or have used it myself successfully against people trained in karate, shaolin, BJJ, catch wrestling, judo, Greco-Roman wrestling, kajukenbo, kenpo, TKD, JKD, Krav Maga, western boxing, pa kwa....I feel bad because I feel like I'm leaving someone out, but you get the idea.

The problem isn't WC, it's that people don't pressure test it like they should. Class time becomes all about theory and all of these magical ideas and complicated routines instead of just getting in there and dropping the guy with some good old fashioned well placed punches.

The school that I tried was from Wong Shun Leung lineage.

The concepts are good, but I never seen them work properly in execution.

I also "tested" some seniors at that school and for most things I threw at them they didn't had an answer, now they were very good VT/WC practitioners, but only against untrained people or fellow practitioners.

So yes it's a very nice art on paper until someone else proves me wrong.

 

[geezer]

I also "tested" some seniors at that school and for most things I threw at them they didn't had an answer, now they were very good VT/WC practitioners, but only against untrained people or fellow practitioners.

So yes it's a very nice art on paper until someone else proves me wrong.

I think you mis-understood what Yak Sao meant about "testing". He was noting that too many WC students don't work hard enough at "testing" and actually applying their techniques against resisting opponents, NOT that you hadn't tested them against your stuff. And, they weren't "very good WC/VT practitioners" if they couldn't apply their techniques freely against other martial artists, although they may have been good at technical displays like chi-sao. You can see the same thing at many schools in many styles.

Anyway, lets not de-rail this thread. It's about finding simple solutions that beat complicated ones. Not about which style is the best. Perhaps you can give a solution from Silat? I know I can think of many from my FMA background.

 

[PiedmontChun]

The school that I tried was from Wong Shun Leung lineage.

The concepts are good, but I never seen them work properly in execution.

I also "tested" some seniors at that school and for most things I threw at them they didn't had an answer, now they were very good VT/WC practitioners, but only against untrained people or fellow practitioners.

So yes it's a very nice art on paper until someone else proves me wrong.

Whats with the recent trend in here of threads derailing into WC bashing? Quite honestly, if you feel this way (the above comment) then why are you here?

 

[Dylan9d]

Whats with the recent trend in here of threads derailing into WC bashing? Quite honestly, if you feel this way (the above comment) then why are you here?

Really? Someone criticize your martial art and the only thing you have to say is that wow I didn't knew WC guys had such long toes....

I just posted my recent experience and why I won't pursue WC and why I will stick with Silat

 

[Argus]

Really? Someone criticize your martial art and the only thing you have to say is that wow I didn't knew WC guys had such long toes....

I just posted my recent experience and why I won't pursue WC and why I will stick with Silat

All due respect, we're not posting in the FMA forum about how "it's all good in theory but we see no substance."

Can't imagine we'd have a warm welcome if we did.

 

[Dylan9d]

All due respect, we're not posting in the FMA forum about how "it's all good in theory but we see no substance."

Can't imagine we'd have a warm welcome if we did.

Well look at the title of the topic, "few techniques to beat them many....", I proved for myself many but not all

Also, I was under the impression that this was a discussion forum, not a holding-hands meeting place...

Maybe I was wrong

And remember it's all personal experiences