I remember reading somewhere that Lee adopted the stances and quick stepping of fencing into the art? But fencing is very linear... so obviously he couldn't have relied fully on that. Plus he didn't seem to use anything like lunging or swords or anything, did he really base it on fencing that much?
Fencing?
- Thread starter tyciol
- Start date
It sounded to me like fencing is just one of many many things he studied and added some of this knowledge to the mix of everything he did. Some of his fakes moved forward and back pretty quickly. A bit like I have seen fencers do.
Robert Lee
Brown Belt
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Peter was an avid fencer and Bruce changed and fit in the needed idea he took from his understanding of the uses he found in fencing. Though the A fencing concepts may not be so directly seen as it has been made to fit in it is a part of the development of JKD As is western boxing and wing chun. But changed for ever to be a part of the whole not a seperate way. Peter being Bruces older brother perhaps led Bruce to investigate The uses Of fencing and the human body as the application Not the held weapon.
What he got from fencing was what is referred to as the Small phasic bent knee position.
Small means compact and economic movements. No big steps or excessive force in footwork.
phasic means changing. This translates to a constantly adjusting position, constantly refreshing the proper distance and stance from the opponent.
Bent knees allow for quick, sudden movement in any direction
The above is quoted from.
http://everything2.com/e2node/Small%20phasic%20bent%20knee%20position
Small means compact and economic movements. No big steps or excessive force in footwork.
phasic means changing. This translates to a constantly adjusting position, constantly refreshing the proper distance and stance from the opponent.
Bent knees allow for quick, sudden movement in any direction
The above is quoted from.
http://everything2.com/e2node/Small%20phasic%20bent%20knee%20position
Live True
Brown Belt
A small thought, FWIW, to add to this thread, not all fencing is done in a linear fashion, like competitive fencing. In a medieval recreation group I played in, we did combat fencing, drawn from many of the old medievel fencing manuals. This emphasized lots of movements that might seem similar to some martial artist, including a lot of diagonal/tenshin-like movements, focus on controlling the movements and balance of your opponents, and slide/lunge movements that helped to undercut your opponents. That type of fencing would lend itself well to a blend in martial arts.
my 2 cents,
my 2 cents,
Em MacIntosh
3rd Black Belt
A lot of fencing shares an intimate relationship with the flamenco (dance) rose and the eight directions thereof. A linear attack is the most efficient but also the most predictable and often easier to defend against. Sword-fighting without a shield is all about deception, even deceptively not using a deception. I find the fencing atmosphere is one of the few places I find actually stresss the importance of leads and faints adequately. A sword is different than a hand though, mostly regarding range which brings your body closer to the threat and directly threatens a hand in a way a sword cannot be, therefore the fencing aspects in JKD must be supplemented with something along the lines of boxing and/or jiu-jitsu/chin-na or WC trapping. Another aspect Dan Inosanto touched on was the value of knife fighting and how it applies to that particular danger zone, almost totally different but every bit as applicable as fencing is to unarmed combat. Developing a sense of the opponent's energy and learning the subtle signs before an attack with very little room for error. I would recommend at least looking into the philipino martial arts in regards to knife or stick fighting. Fencing is mostly about the particular lead/feint/ thrust/withdraw attitude which you can acquire through boxing if you keep it in mind. Also, savatte shares some similarities with fencing as well.
stevieb_8006
White Belt
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He took the stophit technique from fencing and developed the interceptive punch ideas from it.
Yes, and this is a big part of it, but it also influenced some other ideas, like strong side forward.
NubreedKaliSilat
Yellow Belt
Some Principles of Fencing & how they relate to JKD
If we look at some of the basic concepts/principles it is a vigorous sport which requires and develops stamina, quick reactions, speed and accuracy of movement, and excellent coordination. Fencing is also a mental game. Once a fencer has practiced the various movements until he is physically able to carry out a plan with out having to think about how the various parts of the body must move, he finds that the real excitement lies in the outthinking and outwitting his opponent.
You must quickly analyze your adversary's style and then plan your strategy accordingly. You must set traps for your opponent while being vareful to avoid those set by him. In addition to a keen, analytical mind, fencing requires decisive thinking and the courage to assume the offensive at any instant that oppertunity arises. If a fencer delays in building uo the courage to move. the exact moment will be lost. By being prepared to move at any time, by forcefully dominating your opponent, and by successfully carrying out your plans, self confidence in increased.
The stance position: The feet always remain at right angles with the right heel directly in front of the back one, but in the guard position the forward foot is moved ahead so that there is a space of about two of your foot lengths between the feet. Both knees bend so that they are over the toes with the body in the center, weight evenly distributed over the balls of the feet. In assuming this bent knee position be careful that only the legs move as you lower your body. The body must not lean forward or backward, the pelvis should be directly under the truck with the shoulders high, hand relaxed and hanging forward about head height. The right or sword arm is bent so that the elbow is about 8 inches in front of the body, with the hand held chest high and point at the height of your opponents chin. You are in the on guard position.
Next you have the various footwork
The advance The retreat The Lunge
Fencing distance: or the distance between two fencers, depends on the length of the lunge. Fencers should be far enough apart so that a full lunge can just reach the opponent. You should never be on guard closer than this distance or you will be too easily scored upon. It is important that you quickly become accustomed to your lunging distance so that you will not make the mistake of fencing to close, a mistake common to beginners.
Defenses
Parries: a blocking parry is made by moving the sword to protect yourself by blocking the attack, or by a beat, which is made by spanking the blade sharply. The blocking parry is more usefull against a powerful attack, against a fencer that is to close, or against one who tries to hit by jabbing repeatedly. The beat parry is more useful against a clean attack as it frees your blade so that you may immediately score after your defense.
Types of parries
Direct parries, semicircular. circular or counter
Attacks
Hitting the opponent before they can move:
Straight thrust: This is a fast lunge with no chage of line during the attack.
Disengage: When the line in which you are engaged is closed or protected, you may change lines to hit with a disengage.
Cut over, or Coupe: The cut over consists of lifting the point until it just passes over the other blade, ectending, and lunging, all in a continuous motion.
Compound attack: Any attack which is made up of two or more actions is a compound attack. In such an attack, there will be one or more preparatory actions followed by a final or thrusting part of the attack.
Feints: Motion intended to look like an attack.
Beat: This is similar to the beat parry, except that as an offensive action. Made with a sharp, spanking action to either side of the blade. The beat maybe very strong to open the line to get a hit.
The press is the same but more subtle action
Glide: This consists of gliding the blade along that of the opponent as the arm extends.
Derobement, or deceiving a parry: As the opponent attempts to parry your blade in answer to a beat, you may drop your point just low enough for the parry to pass over your blade without hitting it, then attack.
Counter attacks
Riposte: The riposte is a return attack made by a fencer who has parried an attack
The Remise: The remise is an offensive action made by the attacker who fails to hit on his first attempt. It is a second action which places the point on the target without changing line and withoutdrawing the arm.
Principles of Fencing
Varying your distance
Attack on Preparation
Building attack sequences
I under took training in fencing to help with my Kali training and found that it helped me to understand JKD as well. I only touched on a few basic principles of fencing here! But, you can see alot of these principles used within JKD framework. The footwork, the lead hand applications the beats, and parries. The practical applications can be seen through JKD.
If we look at some of the basic concepts/principles it is a vigorous sport which requires and develops stamina, quick reactions, speed and accuracy of movement, and excellent coordination. Fencing is also a mental game. Once a fencer has practiced the various movements until he is physically able to carry out a plan with out having to think about how the various parts of the body must move, he finds that the real excitement lies in the outthinking and outwitting his opponent.
You must quickly analyze your adversary's style and then plan your strategy accordingly. You must set traps for your opponent while being vareful to avoid those set by him. In addition to a keen, analytical mind, fencing requires decisive thinking and the courage to assume the offensive at any instant that oppertunity arises. If a fencer delays in building uo the courage to move. the exact moment will be lost. By being prepared to move at any time, by forcefully dominating your opponent, and by successfully carrying out your plans, self confidence in increased.
The stance position: The feet always remain at right angles with the right heel directly in front of the back one, but in the guard position the forward foot is moved ahead so that there is a space of about two of your foot lengths between the feet. Both knees bend so that they are over the toes with the body in the center, weight evenly distributed over the balls of the feet. In assuming this bent knee position be careful that only the legs move as you lower your body. The body must not lean forward or backward, the pelvis should be directly under the truck with the shoulders high, hand relaxed and hanging forward about head height. The right or sword arm is bent so that the elbow is about 8 inches in front of the body, with the hand held chest high and point at the height of your opponents chin. You are in the on guard position.
Next you have the various footwork
The advance The retreat The Lunge
Fencing distance: or the distance between two fencers, depends on the length of the lunge. Fencers should be far enough apart so that a full lunge can just reach the opponent. You should never be on guard closer than this distance or you will be too easily scored upon. It is important that you quickly become accustomed to your lunging distance so that you will not make the mistake of fencing to close, a mistake common to beginners.
Defenses
Parries: a blocking parry is made by moving the sword to protect yourself by blocking the attack, or by a beat, which is made by spanking the blade sharply. The blocking parry is more usefull against a powerful attack, against a fencer that is to close, or against one who tries to hit by jabbing repeatedly. The beat parry is more useful against a clean attack as it frees your blade so that you may immediately score after your defense.
Types of parries
Direct parries, semicircular. circular or counter
Attacks
Hitting the opponent before they can move:
Straight thrust: This is a fast lunge with no chage of line during the attack.
Disengage: When the line in which you are engaged is closed or protected, you may change lines to hit with a disengage.
Cut over, or Coupe: The cut over consists of lifting the point until it just passes over the other blade, ectending, and lunging, all in a continuous motion.
Compound attack: Any attack which is made up of two or more actions is a compound attack. In such an attack, there will be one or more preparatory actions followed by a final or thrusting part of the attack.
Feints: Motion intended to look like an attack.
Beat: This is similar to the beat parry, except that as an offensive action. Made with a sharp, spanking action to either side of the blade. The beat maybe very strong to open the line to get a hit.
The press is the same but more subtle action
Glide: This consists of gliding the blade along that of the opponent as the arm extends.
Derobement, or deceiving a parry: As the opponent attempts to parry your blade in answer to a beat, you may drop your point just low enough for the parry to pass over your blade without hitting it, then attack.
Counter attacks
Riposte: The riposte is a return attack made by a fencer who has parried an attack
The Remise: The remise is an offensive action made by the attacker who fails to hit on his first attempt. It is a second action which places the point on the target without changing line and withoutdrawing the arm.
Principles of Fencing
Varying your distance
Attack on Preparation
Building attack sequences
I under took training in fencing to help with my Kali training and found that it helped me to understand JKD as well. I only touched on a few basic principles of fencing here! But, you can see alot of these principles used within JKD framework. The footwork, the lead hand applications the beats, and parries. The practical applications can be seen through JKD.
