Federal Agents Investigate Mosque Arson

[Bill Mattocks]

No, not the so-called 'Ground Zero Mosque'. This one is in Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

http://www.wsmv.com/news/24798346/detail.html

Saturday, the FBI and ATF were investigating an arson at the center site. Friday night, a piece of construction equipment was set on fire, while others were drenched in gasoline. According to our news partners at the Daily News Journal, Islamic Center officials said it appeared the arsonist was scared off during the act, and fled the scene before more damage was done. Police are investigating to see if it's a hate crime. Back in June, someone beat and broke the sign at the future site off of Veals Road. Previous to that, someone spray painted the words "Not Welcome" on the sign.

I guess Tennessee is 'too close' to Ground Zero, too.

 

[Ken Morgan]

That reminds me of something...what was it again??
Oh yeah, this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That reminds me of something...what was it again??
Oh yeah, this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/article626865.ece/America---home-of-the-scared

And then I look to my right and spot something that almost makes me gag. Someone has placed a mannequin against the high fence that surrounds the site where the World Trade Center Twin Towers once stood. They have taken the time to dress the doll up as an Arab, complete with a white tunic and black-and-white chequered Yasser Arafat keffiyeh.
If they had left it at that you could still shake your head and tell your child in the back seat that Americans dress up mannequins as a pastime and arbitrarily display them on street corners. Whatever, you know - you could still spin it positively.
But they didn't just dress up the doll; they straddled it on a torpedo. A torpedo! What the ...? Who does that?

Hey, it's not about Muslims, right? It's just about the mosque location. Which is why it's entirely appropriate to hang a mannequin dressed like a Muslim on a fence, riding a torpedo. Yep, no religious intolerance there. No hatred at all. Nothing to see here folks, just expressing our opinion that the Mosque is a teensy bit too close to Ground Zero, and would they mind moving it just a little tiny bit on down the road?

 

[WC_lun]

How far is far enough to satisfy those focusing on Islam being the problem and not extremism itself? Obviously not Tennesee. I know here in Missouri isn't far enough. There has been vandalism of mosque here as well. California? Not according to news reports. There have demonstrations against mosque there. It is interesting to note how many people citing extremist Islams as thier reason for committing extremist acts themselves. Too many damn people are trying to turn this country into a fear and hate filled country.

Gandhi had a great saying that pertains to this, "An eye for an eye blinds the entire world." I have to wonder if some people can even understand what he is saying.

 

[Carol]

Gandhi had a great saying that pertains to this, "An eye for an eye blinds the entire world." I have to wonder if some people can even understand what he is saying.

Interesting you bring up Gandhi.

Gandhi was a Hindu, who was assassinated by a fellow Hindu...an extremist named Nathuram Godse. There are over 800,000 Hindus in India, the vast majority are not etxremists like Godse.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathuram_Godse

A quote that may be fitting:

Godse and his mentors later turned and rejected Gandhi, as they felt that Gandhi was sacrificing Hindu interests in an effort to appease Muslim interests.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The interesting part about bridges; they span both banks. That means they must outreach to each side in equal amount.

People who are bridge builders or who would claim that title must also reach out to both sides of a conflict or dispute. That means that they will not take one side and denounce the other. Those who demand that Imam Rauf 'take a side' do not understand what a bridge builder's job is. If he 'takes a side' and denounces the other, there will be no bridge.

 

[Cryozombie]

The interesting part about bridges; they span both banks. That means they must outreach to each side in equal amount.

People who are bridge builders or who would claim that title must also reach out to both sides of a conflict or dispute. That means that they will not take one side and denounce the other. Those who demand that Imam Rauf 'take a side' do not understand what a bridge builder's job is. If he 'takes a side' and denounces the other, there will be no bridge.

So... start taking that advice Bill.

All I hear from you lately is "This person is racist and intolerant, that person is racist and intolerant" but it rarely if ever addresses both sides/reasons for that hate and intolerance, or the "proof of the stereotype" that brings it about.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm gonna do armchair psychology here... you talked about how racist your dad was, and how hard you try not to be like that... I can't help but think a lot of this outrage you keep showing without addressing the underlying causes is just your way of saying "See! I'm not like my Father!"

Why do you suppose people are intolerant of Muslims in America? It goes beyond simple Ignorance...

 

[Mark Jordan]

This thing about Americans being intolerant towards muslims is a mass propaganda to insinuate anger among muslims.

Honestly, I don't think that just because a few Muslims have done something evil, that all Muslims are evil. Not all Muslims are terrorists. There are just people who take good things and turn it bad.

 

[Blade96]

There goes them Muslim McCarthyites again.

 

[Empty Hands]

Why do you suppose people are intolerant of Muslims in America? It goes beyond simple Ignorance...

So what is it then?

 

[seasoned]

The interesting part about bridges; they span both banks. That means they must outreach to each side in equal amount.

People who are bridge builders or who would claim that title must also reach out to both sides of a conflict or dispute. That means that they will not take one side and denounce the other. Those who demand that Imam Rauf 'take a side' do not understand what a bridge builder's job is. If he 'takes a side' and denounces the other, there will be no bridge.

Not worth crossing anyways.

 

[xJOHNx]

Why do you suppose people are intolerant of Muslims in America? It goes beyond simple Ignorance...

Like the Orthodox priest who was attacked because he looked Aaarab?

A climate of fear that has been created among the general audience of which roughly 50% doesn't understand smaller point in discussions and let alone bother to check the other side's opinion. Ignorance?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So... start taking that advice Bill.

It's good advice for a bridge-builder. I'm not sure I want that role. It does require a different perspective and different rhetoric.

All I hear from you lately is "This person is racist and intolerant, that person is racist and intolerant" but it rarely if ever addresses both sides/reasons for that hate and intolerance, or the "proof of the stereotype" that brings it about.

I'm pretty sure that I've been very careful to cite my sources, instead of posting random accusations or repeating what I've heard or seen or read somewhere. I have addressed (probably ad naseum) the accusations and objections to the Mosque on a point-by-point basis. I've gone out and done the research, and reported what I've found. I'm not sure what more I could do.

Don't take this the wrong way, I'm gonna do armchair psychology here... you talked about how racist your dad was, and how hard you try not to be like that... I can't help but think a lot of this outrage you keep showing without addressing the underlying causes is just your way of saying "See! I'm not like my Father!"

I am quite a bit like my father. He was a strong-willed individual, stubborn, set in his ways, and a fiercely independent thinker. We disagreed about our beliefs, but we were alike in more ways than we were different. We were both prepared to take an ***-whipping for our beliefs - or to deal one out - if need be.

Why do you suppose people are intolerant of Muslims in America? It goes beyond simple Ignorance...

I think that ignorance covers a lot of ground, actually.

We know that our nation has a history of discrimination against recent immigrants (or new religions), especially if they look different or act different or speak a different language or worship a different god than most of us do. This is simple history, it's fact; it may be inescapable.

We know that Chinese were discriminated against, and Catholics, and Mormons, and so on. Have you read about how the Mormons ended up in Utah? It's an interesting story about bigotry and hatred based on ignorance.

We also know that none of the bigotry and racism we've shown has ever resulted in the realization of the fears we had. Not one single case. We haven't been overwhelmed by Chinese, Catholic politicians do not take their marching orders from Rome, the Mormons haven't caused us all to abandon the traditional concept of marriage, and so on.

I can also say that ignorance is the major cause of the bigotry that Muslims who hate the West have for us. They are ignorant in some cases in an even more profound way than we are; deprived of education, no access to free and open media, they are pawns to be preached to by extremists.

In both cases, though, I feel that ignorance is the tool of those who would use it to breed fear and hatred and manipulate it for their own benefit. For power, for money, for fame, for political success. It sickens me. It sickens me just as much that the average everyday Muslim in some nations is exploited the same way; but they don't post here, so you may not hear me say it as much.

 

[Cryozombie]

So what is it then?

Well, I would say that it's, as has been stated above, misinformation being taught to the masses, largely.

I differentiate "Ignorance" from "Misinformation" which I know a lot of people do not.

I'll give you a fictional Example:

If President Obama came out and said "We now know alien life exists, we have photos from deep space probe 9, of these little green men, riding horses and wearing togas" and are shown 20 photos, and in 19 the little green men are riding horses and wearing togas, we would rightly or wrongly assume little green men ride horses and wear togas. But if what they are not showing us are 1000 photos of little green men in Military Suits and Rifles... you could call that Ignorance, I suppose, as in "not knowing" But I call it misinformation... especially considering Common Use of the term ignorance is a slur rather than a state of not knowing all the facts.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm pretty sure that I've been very careful to cite my sources, instead of posting random accusations or repeating what I've heard or seen or read somewhere. I have addressed (probably ad naseum) the accusations and objections to the Mosque on a point-by-point basis. I've gone out and done the research, and reported what I've found. I'm not sure what more I could do.

You are right there, and I never said you didn't do any of those things... BUT you said people needed to reach out to both sides of the dispute, and I simply refuted that you have not done so yourself.

*I* Understand that MOST Muslims are not hate filled terrorists... but *I* also recognize that most of the Bombings and acts Terrorism we are being told about right now are being perpetrated by Mulsim extremists. While I don't think that in any way condones the actions people are taking against *Normal* Muslims, it does allow me to see and understand the climate of fear and anger that is driving these acts, and therefore I can approach them from a direction that isn't "G@^##^&M HILLBILLIES ARE ALL IGNORANT HICK KKK RACISTS" which I see a lot of people doing, and IMO makes them no better than the people who are perpetrating these acts against the Muslims.

I

 

[Bill Mattocks]

You are right there, and I never said you didn't do any of those things... BUT you said people needed to reach out to both sides of the dispute, and I simply refuted that you have not done so yourself.

I hope I'm not splitting hairs here, but I don't think I've urged people to reach out to both sides. I have noted (repeatedly) that Imam Rauf is doing that, when confronted with accusations that he's a terrorist-loving America-hater. He's a bridge-builder, or he wants to be one anyway.

*I* Understand that MOST Muslims are not hate filled terrorists... but *I* also recognize that most of the Bombings and acts Terrorism we are being told about right now are being perpetrated by Mulsim extremists.

That is correct. A recent analogy would have been the 'Troubles' in Northern Ireland and the UK. Most Catholics do not bomb UK soldiers and civilians. But all the IRA members were Catholic. Where did that leave the UK vis-a-vis Catholic churches? Actually a lot like what may be starting to happen here. Tit-for-tat violence, Catholic churches set on fire, Catholics denied jobs and forced into ghettoes, and more Catholics turned into extremists by the pain inflicted on them by people who had in turn been injured by the IRA and other Catholic militia-type groups.

While I don't think that in any way condones the actions people are taking against *Normal* Muslims, it does allow me to see and understand the climate of fear and anger that is driving these acts, and therefore I can approach them from a direction that isn't "G@^##^&M HILLBILLIES ARE ALL IGNORANT HICK KKK RACISTS" which I see a lot of people doing, and IMO makes them no better than the people who are perpetrating these acts against the Muslims.

Go you. I wish I could be as detached. Something about reading people's statements about Muslims makes me think of this:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9D05E6D6123DE034BC4D51DFBE66838E649FDE

August 25, 1855, Wednesday
Page 2, 312 words
From the Ohio Statesman, Aug. 22. The following letter to a gentleman in this city will inspire the mind of every good man with horror and alarm: SIDNEY, Shelby Co., Ohio, Sunday, Aug. 19, 1855. DEAR SIR: Last night, about 11 o'clock, the Catholic frame church of this place was made a pile of ruins.

Today they protest a mosque in NYC, they protest a mosque in CA, they protest a mosque in TN. Then they set some construction equipment on fire outside a mosque. What happens when they burn one down or blow it up?

We've been here before. I will not become one of the slavering, idiotic, mindless hate-filled crowd that does it again, just because this time it's not MY religion being excoriated.

I am no fan of Islam, and I have no particular feeling one way or another for Muslims. I am a fan of freedom of religion and religious tolerance, and I won't stand by silently while the match is lit again as it has been in the past. A hundred years ago, it was Catholics having their churches burnt down and blown up. Now it's Muslims. I say 'no'. Impolite of me? Rude? I am not kind enough to the people who think that Imam Rauf is Satan in person, come to fart brimstone on all the widows and orphans of 9/11? So be it.

 

[Cryozombie]

Arite man, I think I get where you are coming from...

 

[WC_lun]

I think this reasoning is flawed. The terrorist were what they were not because they were Muslims. They were what they were because they were ignorant men manipulated into believing what they did was for "good." To judge Muslims on the actions of a few misguided, brainwashed, ignorant men is in itself ignorant. This ignorance, willfull or otherwise, is being fanned by media and politicians using it to help them reach specific goals. They are using hate and fear of the other based upon falsehoods that are fanning flames that may not be easily put out.

As far as most terrorist being Muslim, not really no. Not even recently. I know someone is going to ask for examples so here's a few;

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7721172&page=1
http://cbs11tv.com/local/Broderick.Gamble.hate.2.622690.html
http://cbs2.com/local/girl.racially.motivated.2.526064.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/10/museum.shooting/
http://www.wkrn.com/global/story.asp?s=11966739
http://www2.tbo.com/content/2007/sep/18/mosque-vandalism-st-pete-hate-crime-cair-says/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90207&page=1
http://current.com/news/92170920_plane-crash-in-austin-texas-suicide-attack-on-irs-offices.htm

These were found with just a cursory inernet search. All meet the criteria of terrorism and none were committed by Muslims. Because some of these crimes were committed by Christians, should we then assume that Christianity is a core cause of terrorism? I think that would be a mistaken and ignorant claim, just like those calling Islam as a cause of terrorism. Extremism and the belief that it is acceptable to use violence to enforce your particular beliefs are the causes of terrorism. The only reasons Islam is brought into the equation is because they are different that most Americans and they were better at pulling off thier insanity.

Public opinion can and has been manipulated in the past to support things that we now view as wrong. Public opinion was very high against racial equality. Public opinion was very high against treating whites and non-whites equally within the armed services. Public opinion has been very high against certain ethnic groups such as the Chinese, Italian, and Irish. Public opinion was high against abolishing laws against bi-racial marriages. When hate, fear, and falsehoods are the basis for public opinion that contradict our constitution, then that public opinion should not be considered

 

[Marginal]

So... start taking that advice Bill.

All I hear from you lately is "This person is racist and intolerant, that person is racist and intolerant" but it rarely if ever addresses both sides/reasons for that hate and intolerance, or the "proof of the stereotype" that brings it about.

It is kinda funny.

"Islam is a religion which enables violence. We oppose Mosques for that reason. Nothing personal tho."

This is apparently a perfectly valid generalization.

"People who assume all members of a group are terrorists are bigots."

The response?

"How dare you paint ME with a broad brush? Shame on you for assuming anything about me!"

Wacky mental static.

 

[Carol]

We have Christian terrorism in this country.

Yet the nation as a whole seems to be willing to delineate between Christian terrorists and Christian non-terrorists when the terror victims are gynecologists and/or their assistants....even when the terrorists go on to bomb Olympic parks.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/nyregion/abortion-doctor-in-buffalo-slain-sniper-attack-fits-violent-pattern.html

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2719258620070428

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Robert_Rudolph