FEAR

oftheherd1

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Absolutely lack of confidence and fear of failure goes hand in hand and is probably one of the most fears we deal with day to day.

Working undercover I see both sides of it.

Younger less experienced agents too hesitant because they are second guessing themselves.... Not so much for fear of injury but fear of making a mistake.

Older experienced agents too overconfident and willing to take too many chances with their safety.

With competition, you"ve never seen a competitor be hesisitant due to lack of confidence and/or fear of failing?

I think I would be more inclined to use a word like anxiety than fear. Then I might be able to say I've seen a competitor be anxious about failure. But fear doesn't fit to my way of thinking.
 

CB Jones

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But fear doesn't fit to my way of thinking.

Why?

Fear is not weakness....its completely natural.

I feel by recognizing your fear allows you to better determine if it is rational or healthy and move past it.
 

Gweilo

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Fear is an individual trait, it governs your training, your response, your beleif, a weak individual will let the emotions of a situation, or a crowd, control their response, our training, in ma, is a response, to a senario of events, anything other than a trained reaction, is different, this creates the unknown, most train for a sequence of events, as Lee put it, a trained response, with little adaptaion for evoloution. Some will crumble, under pain, some will back down if they see their own blood, some will crumble under the shear threat of violence.
This is the only point I will agree with, with regards to the mma argument that Drop bear likes to make, when he talks about evidence. We need to train in a manner that deals with the fundamental fears of the human being, pressure test the indiividual, at every stage, what we train, we need to trust.
 

jobo

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Fear is an individual trait, it governs your training, your response, your beleif, a weak individual will let the emotions of a situation, or a crowd, control their response, our training, in ma, is a response, to a senario of events, anything other than a trained reaction, is different, this creates the unknown, most train for a sequence of events, as Lee put it, a trained response, with little adaptaion for evoloution. Some will crumble, under pain, some will back down if they see their own blood, some will crumble under the shear threat of violence.
This is the only point I will agree with, with regards to the mma argument that Drop bear likes to make, when he talks about evidence. We need to train in a manner that deals with the fundamental fears of the human being, pressure test the indiividual, at every stage, what we train, we need to trust.
so your saying only weak individual experience fear ?
 

Gweilo

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No, everbody, but its individual fear that needs to be accepted in order to deal with it, understanding why, and how it effects us.
 

jobo

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No, everbody, but its individual fear that needs to be accepted in order to deal with it, understanding why, and how it effects us.
but you used the term '' weak individuals'' which people are you referring to

ive always regarded fear as a healthy thing rather than a weakness, provided what you are in fear of is actually harmful to you, being scared of trees is possibly not healthy, being scared of trees falling on you in a hurricane on the other hand is
 
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Gerry Seymour

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but you used the term '' weak people'' which people are you referring to

ive always regarded fear as a healthy thing rather than a weakness, provided what you are in fear of is actually harmful to you, being scared of trees is possibly not healthy, being scared of trees falling on you in a hurricane on the other hand is
I didn't see that term in the post you quoted. Was it in a previous post of his?
 

jobo

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Fear is an individual trait, it governs your training, your response, your beleif, a weak individual will let the emotions of a situation, or a crowd, control their response, our training, in ma, is a response, to a senario of events, anything other than a trained reaction, is different, this creates the unknown, most train for a sequence of events, as Lee put it, a trained response, with little adaptaion for evoloution. Some will crumble, under pain, some will back down if they see their own blood, some will crumble under the shear threat of violence.
This is the only point I will agree with, with regards to the mma argument that Drop bear likes to make, when he talks about evidence. We need to train in a manner that deals with the fundamental fears of the human being, pressure test the indiividual, at every stage, what we train, we need to trust.

this one, to be fair on rereading it says weak individuals rather than people, it amounts to the same thing, but ive edited my post to be accurate
 
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Gerry Seymour

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this one, to be fair on rereading it says weak individuals rather than people, it amounts to the same thing, but ive edited my post to be accurate
The way I read that one, he's referring to the response to fear, rather than the fear, itself. More or less the same point @Buka and others made.
 

jobo

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The way I read that one, he's referring to the response to fear, rather than the fear, itself. More or less the same point @Buka and others made.
but fear IS the response to a ( harmful) set of circumstances real or imagined, there is no separation between fear and the fearful response, they are the same thing

i feel judging people for having a different response to yourself, to any given set of circumstances as '' weak'' is ignoring a 100 years of science and also quite self satisfied


il cheerfully admit that an awful lot of things scare me, height of the ground for instance, a fear i didn't have till i went parachute jumping, now i have trouble crossing bridges that dont have walls to block of the ground, but not generally at all in fear of getting in a fight, does that make we '' weaker'' or stronger than some one who crosses bridges, but is in fear of getting beaten up, theirs is is certainly less irrational than mine !,

i think that just makes us individuals of equal value.

people who dont have a fear response to anything generally dont last much out of their teens, there a very good reason why they have a tendency to fight wars with teenagers ( and '' young men'',) who haven't yet developed the concept of their own mortality

im not at all sure that a description of me as '' weak'' is either fair or accurate,
 
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Gweilo

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You seem to be taking this personally or out of context, there are some people, when in a confrontation, just crumple into a ball on the floor, and through fear, not even attempting to defend themself. Weather you like it or not, your fear of heights, is a weakness, you may or may not confront these fears I dont know, but your life would not be plesent if you were a roofer. Most roofers at one point in time, were probably scared of heights, but over time learn to deal with this fear, and not letting it dictate their working day. Most fear of this sort can be over come or managed, we have spoke before about contact sparring helping to reduce the flinch response. But for the most part, fear is imaginary, there areca lot of martial artists out there that fear is manifested through lack of beleif in themself, and is psychological, and its knowing why a perticular fear is present in oneself, once you truely understand why the fear arises, you can put measures in place, to subdue or eliminate.
 

jobo

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You seem to be taking this personally or out of context, there are some people, when in a confrontation, just crumple into a ball on the floor, and through fear, not even attempting to defend themself. Weather you like it or not, your fear of heights, is a weakness, you may or may not confront these fears I dont know, but your life would not be plesent if you were a roofer. Most roofers at one point in time, were probably scared of heights, but over time learn to deal with this fear, and not letting it dictate their working day. Most fear of this sort can be over come or managed, we have spoke before about contact sparring helping to reduce the flinch response. But for the most part, fear is imaginary, there areca lot of martial artists out there that fear is manifested through lack of beleif in themself, and is psychological, and its knowing why a perticular fear is present in oneself, once you truely understand why the fear arises, you can put measures in place, to subdue or eliminate.
well most people have a fear of something ?

people who are scared of physical confrontations are not weaker than people who are scared of being run over playing football on a motorway, quite a common fear i assume by the lack of people you see playing football on them

what your doing is favouring one type of very rational fear over another very rational fear, why do you want to subdue rational fear ?

your clearly quoting us from the teachings of your militaristic ma, which would likely see fear of physical confrontation, as a weakness, i personally view people who volunteer to go to war zones as stupid in the extreme, rather than lacking ''weakness'', some people, most people dont want to get into fights and want to spend no time at all learning how not to flinch, that doesn't make them weak, sensible really

nb i cross bridges everyday, its hard not to, but my fear of falling never diminishes, so simply saying exposing yourself to a fear lessens it, is simply not a universal truth and lets face it bridges have collapsed with people on them, so its not even completely irrational+ just as quite a lot of construction workers have badly injured themselves falling off roofs, because they lacked fear
 
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Gerry Seymour

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but fear IS the response to a ( harmful) set of circumstances real or imagined, there is no separation between fear and the fearful response, they are the same thing

i feel judging people for having a different response to yourself, to any given set of circumstances as '' weak'' is ignoring a 100 years of science and also quite self satisfied


il cheerfully admit that an awful lot of things scare me, height of the ground for instance, a fear i didn't have till i went parachute jumping, now i have trouble crossing bridges that dont have walls to block of the ground, but not generally at all in fear of getting in a fight, does that make we '' weaker'' or stronger than some one who crosses bridges, but is in fear of getting beaten up, theirs is is certainly less irrational than mine !,

i think that just makes us individuals of equal value.

people who dont have a fear response to anything generally dont last much out of their teens, there a very good reason why they have a tendency to fight wars with teenagers ( and '' young men'',) who haven't yet developed the concept of their own mortality

im not at all sure that a description of me as '' weak'' is either fair or accurate,
While you are correct that fear is a response, fear is not the final response in the chain. There is also a response to the experience of fear. That is not a predetermined outcome.

But Im pretty sure you know that and are being purposefully argumentative.
 

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well most people have a fear of something ?

people who are scared of physical confrontations are not weaker than people who are scared of being run over playing football on a motorway, quite a common fear i assume by the lack of people you see playing football on them

what your doing is favouring one type of very rational fear over another very rational fear, why do you want to subdue rational fear ?

your clearly quoting us from the teachings of your militaristic ma, which would likely see fear of physical confrontation, as a weakness, i personally view people who volunteer to go to war zones as stupid in the extreme, rather than lacking ''weakness'', some people, most people dont want to get into fights and want to spend no time at all learning how not to flinch, that doesn't make them weak, sensible really

nb i cross bridges everyday, its hard not to, but my fear of falling never diminishes, so simply saying exposing yourself to a fear lessens it, is simply not a universal truth and lets face it bridges have collapsed with people on them, so its not even completely irrational+ just as quite a lot of construction workers have badly injured themselves falling off roofs, because they lacked fear
You seem to be very judgmental about weakness. Its a relative term - nothing more. If you can lift more than me, Im weaker than you in that area. That I might be stronger at pulling doesnt make me less weak at lifting.

So, yes, a fear of heights can be a weakness. I still have a moderate fear of heights, but was an avid rock climber for several years and worked doing theatrical lighting for several more (lots of catwalks and high ladders). Working past that weakness made me stronger.

Im not sure where thats a controversial view.
 

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While you are correct that fear is a response, fear is not the final response in the chain. There is also a response to the experience of fear. That is not a predetermined outcome.

But Im pretty sure you know that and are being purposefully argumentative.
if your not experiencing fear you dont have an adverse reaction, if you have an adverse reaction your experiencing fear

if you have less of an adverse reaction than you did yesterday, its because your experiencing less fear. ergo fear and the reaction are indivisible from each other and are therefore one and the same thing
 

jobo

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You seem to be very judgmental about weakness. Its a relative term - nothing more. If you can lift more than me, Im weaker than you in that area. That I might be stronger at pulling doesnt make me less weak at lifting.

So, yes, a fear of heights can be a weakness. I still have a moderate fear of heights, but was an avid rock climber for several years and worked doing theatrical lighting for several more (lots of catwalks and high ladders). Working past that weakness made me stronger.

Im not sure where thats a controversial view.
its only a relative term if you have a specific comparative, your only weaker than me, if you making comparisons specifically with me. other than that your lifting weight is is a simple statement of fact, it is neither strong or weak it just is

to simply state that your are a weak individual with out a defined comparative is inaccurate

if i take arbitrary measurements that just happen to suit my sense of self worth and use them as the comparative to demean your value as a individual then that is judgemental and has an enormous element of selection bias

so for instance im probably better at 8 ball pool than you, does that make you an uncoordinated individual, clearly not, if i insist it does then im rigging the scale to give a result that favours my selection bias, that im more worth while than you are.

and thats exactly what he was doing, he is gaining his self value from a specific characteristic and using that to demean anyone who doesn't share that characteristic as '' weak''
 
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Gerry Seymour

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if your not experiencing fear you dont have an adverse reaction, if you have an adverse reaction your experiencing fear

if you have less of an adverse reaction than you did yesterday, its because your experiencing less fear. ergo fear and the reaction are indivisible from each other and are therefore one and the same thing
And you're still ignoring the reaction to the fear. But you know that.
 

jobo

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And you're still ignoring the reaction to the fear. But you know that.
edit

no im not,

how do you know if your experiencing fear,, the physical reaction, there is no other way
 
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Gweilo

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Physical reaction is not the only response to fear, there can be a mental reaction, for example freezing, it was not my intention to say everyone with a fear is weak, but it is a weakness of sorts.
Lets just say you get into an altercation in an open field, is your response going to be identical if you were in the same altercation, but at height, with a fear of heights, no its not.
Its a simple thing, know yourself completely, you can train all you want in conditioning, speed and strength training, but if you act or do not act in a certain way, because of a fear you have, its a weakness, I am merely saying, understand what and why you do the things you do. Everyone has some kind of fear its a natural thing, but not understanding the fear, or not learning to overcome the fear, and just put it to the back of your mind (surpress it), its going to resurface sooner or later, and usually when you really dont need it.
 

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no im not,

how do you know if your experiencing fear,, the physical reaction, there is no other way
You're talking about the sensation. I'm talking about the behavior. That's the part you're ignoring.
 
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