Farenheit 9/11

[rmcrobertson]

Big companies ARE, "full of money." That is why they're big companies. And it never fails to amaze me that working Americans so often become angry at the spectacle of other working Americans--like grocery store workers--getting paaid a living wage, and having decent health benefits. Especially given the grotesque profits of companies like Enron, and people like Ken Lay and Michael Eisner, who's damn near run Disney into the ground.

There are reasons cities are voting to keep WalMart away, ya know.

And run it by me again: why is Moore at fault because Flint and the State wanted more out of GM? Can you offer a SPECIFIC example of him, "slinking around?"

You're being hoodwinked, guys.

 

[Cruentus]

My opinion.

Micheal Moore presents a point of view. Like any documentary, he has a thesis or point to make, and he presents evidence that will support his points in a manner that he feels will not only support his points, but that will be entertaining as well.

Nothing wrong with that, in my opinion, as this is what movie makers do. I understand that many like him, and many do not. For either, some have valid reasons for their stance, others are just cohorting with no real evidence to support their stance.

I like his movies. I don't think that Moore should run for president, or fix the world; nor do I worship the man as many of his fans do. I don't take his evidence as gospel...I double check his facts. What I have found is that his facts usually match up...it's just the presentation of those facts that people have problems with.

Take it for what it is. If you are expecting to get an unbiased approach from one of his films, you'll be disappointed. If you are expecting a different point of view from what is generally excepted, then they are great films to see.

"Take his films with a grain of salt" I say, take every film with a grain of salt.

On that note, I can't wait to see his new film.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Can you offer a SPECIFIC example of him, "slinking around?"

Actually, Rich can, Robert, as Rich works for GM, is a Flint resident, and was somewhat closer then most of the issue then most of us in the 80's. I hope he'll post his examples.

Moore is not saint, and definatily has an agenda. But, I don't care. I like the point of view he presents, but I take it as that. A point of view.

 

[michaeledward]

On that note, I can't wait to see his new film.

PAUL

Thank you for addressing the question at hand ... and not the one we didn't settle at Oscar time.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Big companies ARE, "full of money." That is why they're big companies. And it never fails to amaze me that working Americans so often become angry at the spectacle of other working Americans--like grocery store workers--getting paaid a living wage, and having decent health benefits. Especially given the grotesque profits of companies like Enron, and people like Ken Lay and Michael Eisner, who's damn near run Disney into the ground.

There are reasons cities are voting to keep WalMart away, ya know.

And run it by me again: why is Moore at fault because Flint and the State wanted more out of GM? Can you offer a SPECIFIC example of him, "slinking around?"

You're being hoodwinked, guys.

Robert, $16 an hour is about $32,000 a year. Not may made that type of money. At that time Genesee County had the highest standard of living out of the whole Nation. The whole Nation. The county had to have a readjustment and then people were upset at GM being the largest, not the other companies as well.

As to slinking, did he make a film of his visit here to Flint a couple of years ago to address the closing of the plant in question I mentioned? Nope! He left town with out giving comments. He did not find a sensational reason to make a movie about a bunch of greedy city and state people. About a bunch of people born in 1984 who wanted to get a job with no training and not work. He did nto find the next plot in his movie from their parents who were born in 1966 and also did NOT work for GM. Yet, there father or Grand Father depending upon relation could go to work and be sent home and get paid. Or sleep while getting paid, and they were all upset because they could not get into this type of position. The Unions all of them woudl strike and get higher wages, and better benefits. Companies went away and took jobs away because they could not afford to pay three to six times the living wage of 1976.

Micheal Moore had a great fan fare for how he was going to come in and save Flint. Make it a big issue. Then he left town. He did nto make a movie or give a press release. If he had I may have respected him, in particular if he had made comments about how things had changed, and not always for the best either. Yet, he just went away. Did he say anything? No he could not get his press nor his propaganda on the air waves. This makes him slink away , in my opinion. Did he make as grand an exit as his entrance after he found out what the story was? No way. He just left. Then the Unions and city all creid he deserted them and left them hangin out to dry.

 

[rmcrobertson]

What fanfare? Rich, I'm sorry, but it is weird in the extreme to blame Moore for the downfall of Flint. He's a film-maker, fer cryin' out loud.

Companies like GM have been, "outsourcing," jobs--shipping them overseas--for twenty-plus years now. Moreover, when "Roger and Me," got made, the utter refusal of management to adapt combined with the utter greediness of owners and shareholders is what did it. Sorry, really, but blaming unions and socialist wankers...

And what exactly is wrong with working people making a decent wage again? Still not gettin' it...

 

[MisterMike]

Why is it we "need" Unions any more???

 

[Cruentus]

Then the Unions and city all creid he deserted them and left them hangin out to dry.

This is true. It seems to be a prevalent attitude in Genessee country that Micheal Moore got his story, then deserted his own community. It wouldn't have been so bad, but it is my understanding that Moore got a lot of support for his film from the community by presenting the idea of, "We can do this! We can take back our community!" When it seemed he really meant, "You guys should take back your community...I'm outta here, and moving to New York to work on my next project. You all are on your own."

However, I can in good conscious watch Micheal Moore's films because I am not in genessee county. I'm one of those Rich-*** bastards from Oakland county, just south of Genesse, so I don't associate with those blue collar people. I support Moore because I'm a yuppie who wants to stick it to the man, while I collect my phat check of the sweat of those Genesse county people. :boing2: (lol obviously just kidding).

On a serious note, I don't know if he was a "deserter" or if he just decided to work on different projects, and people wrongfully had him up on a pedistle where he didn't belong. As Robert said, "He's just a filmaker." And, I just watch his films.

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Why is it we "need" Unions any more???"

Well, it's little things. The work-week keeps increasing. Companies are outsourcing jobs like crazy. Health care is harder and harder to afford, and companies are cutting. Benefits are dropping, and companies are reneging on retirement plans. Occupational safety and environmental concerns are being ignored.

Meanwhile, companies are reporting record profits, CEOs' salaries are skyrocketing, and more and more companies are getting caught cheating.

Oh yes, and worker productivity keeps climbing.

But hey, I know. All this is somehow, perversely, the unions' fault, right?

 

[Phoenix44]

Could you please elaborate more on this sentence. I also think it is frightening if American citizens can't speak freely without fear of retribution. What specifically are you talking about here?


-Rob

Yes. The reason why Disney will not release Moore's new film is because their major assets are in Florida, and Disney is afraid that if it is unfavorable to the president, it will adversely affect their tax status in a state governed by Jeb Bush. That is TERRIFYING to me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Then the Unions and city all creid he deserted them and left them hangin out to dry.

And just what did they expect of him further than bringing the problem to light? Talk about your displaced anger; the ball was in the voter's court and the voters sent more jobs over seas. In fact as I recall he was branded a liar, and now somehow became the problem.
Sean

 

[Cruentus]

I had to chuckle when I heard CNBC today.

Out of nowhere on Capital Report, the reporter (forgot his name) comes on to say, "Following from our story from yesterday, Disney actually didn't try to block Micheal Moores film "Farenhiet 911" from its release in the states. Disney just decided not to distribute the film." That was it; cut to comercial.

I had to laugh outloud. The announcement literally came out of nowhere and was totally random. I guess Eisner and his PR thugs realized that the damn movie's going to be released whether or not Disney distributes it or not. They've already lost some money by not distributing the film, and now they'll have to spend money on PR to back out of looking like smucks when the movie does release.

lol, real smart business decision.

Wouldn't it be sweet justice if their profit loss exceeded their Florida tax breaks?

 

[Rich Parsons]

What fanfare? Rich, I'm sorry, but it is weird in the extreme to blame Moore for the downfall of Flint. He's a film-maker, fer cryin' out loud.

Companies like GM have been, "outsourcing," jobs--shipping them overseas--for twenty-plus years now. Moreover, when "Roger and Me," got made, the utter refusal of management to adapt combined with the utter greediness of owners and shareholders is what did it. Sorry, really, but blaming unions and socialist wankers...

And what exactly is wrong with working people making a decent wage again? Still not gettin' it...

Robert,

First, Fanfare, the press bites, the news paper articles all about how Micheal Moore was coming back to make another movie. He ate it up. He waved to the crowds, he smiled. Then no follow up. He slinked away. He did not come out and make any statments other than he does not believe he could help Flint.

I do not blame Micheal Moore for the down fall of any city. What happened to Flint and the Jobs were nothing more than an adjustment. The labor rates were too high compared to other areas. In the 1970's Genesee county had the higherst standard of living for many years out of any county in the U.S. A lot of this was based upon the health care and wages provded by the unions. The problem was that the rest of the country could not afford to continue to pay this small area special wages.

The third Item, of what is wrong. I will go real slow here again. Pay attention please. In 1976 making $19 an hour for being a cashier and the Union line workers made upto $16 an hour. Once again 1976. Not today. 28 years ago. Back when minimum wage was about $1.75 or so, and a good wage of the day was between $5 and $10, with really good wages being in the $15 Plus. Engineers made about $15 to $25 an hour. The $25 was for people with 25 to 30 years experience.

Like I said before there is nothing wrong with people making money. There is something wrong with people who expect to get paid without working. That I just do not get. Do you get it? Do you sit on your butt and sleep, and expect to make lots of money including over time? From your past posts here, I do not think so.

Now as to your second item. Jobs over seas. Can you prove this? I would like to read the sources or the sites.

Try reading Business Week Dated March 22, 2004. Cover "Where are the JOBS?"

Page 36 is the cover story.
Page 38 is the The PRice of Efficiency
Page 44 Productivity: Who Wins, Who Losses.

Etc, ...,


Page 37

"The Real Culprit
Yet there are things we do know. The real culprit in this jobless recovery is the productivity, not offshoring."

Page 40

"Researchers estimate outsourcing has cost the U.S. just 300,000 jobs in 3 years.

Page 41

"By Contrast, one percentage point of annual productivity growth eliminates about 1.3 Million jobs."

So, please provide me other sources that contrast these points and articles, I have sited.

Like I said, do not try to convince me I am wrong about my opinion. It is my opinion. I do not attack you for your opinions. You may provide data to me, so that I may weigh the information and change my own mind.


:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

"Why is it we "need" Unions any more???"

Well, it's little things. The work-week keeps increasing. Companies are outsourcing jobs like crazy. Health care is harder and harder to afford, and companies are cutting. Benefits are dropping, and companies are reneging on retirement plans. Occupational safety and environmental concerns are being ignored.

Meanwhile, companies are reporting record profits, CEOs' salaries are skyrocketing, and more and more companies are getting caught cheating.

Oh yes, and worker productivity keeps climbing.

But hey, I know. All this is somehow, perversely, the unions' fault, right?

Robert while I agree with many of the reasons.

Which companies are geneging on retirement plans?

Why is health care going up? because of the large companies that provide it, or because people and fraud? or greedy doctors and nurses? or the large companies that offer it?


As to getting caught cheating. A new law has been rolled out to companies. It requires education by the management about what to report and where to report it. At Enron, many of the employees did not know who to report too. any of the low level managers admitted they tried only they could not find the right auditor to report too. (* This assumes you take there statements at face value. Once again just what I have read in papers and heard on TV's. No source. I apologize. *)

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, Rich, you could go real fast and I could use an electron microscope to scan the pages and you'd still be wrong.

Which companies? Enron. Bethlehem Steel. The Social Security System. Many, many others.

I agree with the, "Business Week," stuff, basically, about jobs. How does this help your argument?

I sit on an advisory Board concerned with health care insurance (83 mil in assests! Whoee!)--it's going up because of drug costs, technology, insane decisions about sustaining the very young and the very old, corporate fiddling, and irresponsible, fat Americans who wouldn't take care of themselves if their life depended on it...oh wait, it does.

I'm glad you believe that this here new regulation about ethics in business will do the trick. They've been saying that though, since the days of Jay Gould and Jim Fisk...

I even agree that you probably shouldn't get paid if you don't work, and that your pay should be in relation to your usefulness. Therefore, none of the 'holes like Eisner should get anything remotely resembling their grotesque salaries.

And as for shipping jobs out--maquiladoras ring a bell? Bhopal?

Life Savers and Levis: no longer made in the USA. Hm.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Gee, Rich, you could go real fast and I could use an electron microscope to scan the pages and you'd still be wrong.

Which companies? Enron. Bethlehem Steel. The Social Security System. Many, many others.

I agree with the, "Business Week," stuff, basically, about jobs. How does this help your argument?

I sit on an advisory Board concerned with health care insurance (83 mil in assests! Whoee!)--it's going up because of drug costs, technology, insane decisions about sustaining the very young and the very old, corporate fiddling, and irresponsible, fat Americans who wouldn't take care of themselves if their life depended on it...oh wait, it does.

I'm glad you believe that this here new regulation about ethics in business will do the trick. They've been saying that though, since the days of Jay Gould and Jim Fisk...

I even agree that you probably shouldn't get paid if you don't work, and that your pay should be in relation to your usefulness. Therefore, none of the 'holes like Eisner should get anything remotely resembling their grotesque salaries.

And as for shipping jobs out--maquiladoras ring a bell? Bhopal?

Life Savers and Levis: no longer made in the USA. Hm.

Ok Robert, I am wrong.

Let me try this now.

In 1976 I said $19 an hour.

$2.3 an hour for minimum wage, for simple math.
(* see the following Link or this Link *)

$19 / $2.3 gives a ratio of 8.26
$19 an hour give $39520 a year.

Minimum wage of today is $6.75

8.26 * $6.75 for the same ratio for a cashier at a grocery store is $55.755 an hourly rate. This is over $115,000 a year. At the same ratio as the cashier in 1976.

I have no problem with a fair wage. I have no problem someone getting what the market can provide. If I can go eslewhere and get the same product I will. People would drive out of the county to shop to get lower prices. So, I guess we started outsourcing to other counties before we did the other countries.



Question on Bethlehem Steel. Did not the new company that bought them out have to provide for their retirement account? If not then was it a percentage on the dollar, or nothing at all?

As to Social Security, I agree that it looks bad. Could we agree that people who never paid in should not pull out? Can we agree that it should be used as supplement in retirement, and not for disabilities? Thsoe disabilities may deserve to be compensated by our society, yet not from the social security fund. A new tax would have to be raised to pay for these other payments from out the socal security fund.


As to the new regulation, I never said it would be the silver bullet. I mentioned it was inacted and people were following through. Just because I site a piece of infomration does not mean I support it 100% or think it will resolve world hunger. This is you my friend putting words or expectation on my words that are not there.

As to the outsourcing, I do agree that every job lost is not good. This is technology and capability that is sent elsewhere.

Yet, companies like Toyota, Honda, GM and others have plants in multiple countries or continents, to adjust for the fluctuation of the currency. Therefor they can import or export depending upon market fluctuation. So, some jobs have come to the US to support this. Yet, to loose whole markets such as textiles is not good.

I do not have the answers.

I do know there are no absolutes no 100% in this life for the jobs and economy. Hence, back to my original point, In my opinion (* wrong though you may thin it to be *), Michela Moore is a jerk and only out to make money. He does not care about the issues he promotes, only can he get credit, fame and money from it. Hence, not doing a follow up story in Flint. There is no money in supporting the big company, wihtout being considered a sell out. Yet, if he was truly after the truth, he would have done it. Once again my opinion, even though you think it is wrong.

:asian:

 

[Thesemindz]

Yes. The reason why Disney will not release Moore's new film is because their major assets are in Florida, and Disney is afraid that if it is unfavorable to the president, it will adversely affect their tax status in a state governed by Jeb Bush. That is TERRIFYING to me.

Wow. That is frightening. Where did you get this information? Was this released in a Disney press release?


-Rob

 

[rmcrobertson]

Rich:

What you are describing is capitalism, an economic system. It has no interest in fairness, workers, rights, ethics, America, or anything else. It is a system for producing, accumulating, exchanging this thing called, "capital." Everything else is incidental--and the things you complain about are some of its side effects.

Cashiers do not make eight to ten times minimum wage, so the "math," you cite makes little sense to me.

Looked at any of the stuff on what happens once CEOs start making more than twenty times what their lowest-paid workers make?

And again--since you never quite seem to respond--exactly how do you propose that hard-working people who happen to work in groceries survive, pay mortgages, feed their kids, handle college expenses and medical expenses, if they do not get paid a decent wage and they do not get benefits? What precisely do you suggest that they do?

American workers, and the middle class for that matter, slip a little further behind every year--as people work harder, commute more, have less access to care, lose out on a good education, etc. And, as the likes of our current President get richer and richer....

I mean, you didn't buy that "tax cut," lunacy, did you?

I recommend reading some E.P. Thompson, I.F. Stone, and Howard Zinn on the history of unions.

It's capitalism. Piling up money for the bosses is what capitalism does. It's how it works. Of course, lost in the bargain are tens of millions of Americans....

 

[michaeledward]

Wow. That is frightening. Where did you get this information? Was this released in a Disney press release?

-Rob

Go to any Business Web Site and look at 'Recent News' for DIS. Here is one quote, from one article.

"Fahrenheit 9/11" had already whipped up an international media storm after the Walt Disney Co (DIS) barred its Miramax film unit from releasing such a politically polarising work in a U.S. election year.
​

You could then also look at Mr. Moore's comments at his web site (www.michaelmoore.com).

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich:

What you are describing is capitalism, an economic system. It has no interest in fairness, workers, rights, ethics, America, or anything else. It is a system for producing, accumulating, exchanging this thing called, "capital." Everything else is incidental--and the things you complain about are some of its side effects.

And what is wrong with this system?

Should we be Communists? Where everyone gets the same? ON a real small scale such as a Commune I think this system would work. Everyone can benefit from the labors of the others and see it and know it. When it gets too large, it is too easy for the human factor and in natural greed to step in. Just my opinion.

Looked at any of the stuff on what happens once CEOs start making more than twenty times what their lowest-paid workers make?

I agree to a salary to the decision-making capability of the CEO's. I do not like the hidden bonuses and such that seem to always come out in their favor even when the company is not doing well. Once again, just because I make a comment about a local situation, you assume I am making a broad statement against all. :idunno:

American workers, and the middle class for that matter, slip a little further behind every year--as people work harder, commute more, have less access to care, lose out on a good education, etc. And, as the likes of our current President get richer and richer....

Ok, how do we fix this? I do not disagree. How do we fix it?

I mean, you didn't buy that "tax cut," lunacy, did you?

Tax Cut , Yeah Sure, I got a tax cut all right. I am single, I saw maybe $800. And even if I saw $8,000, I would still ask where is the money coming from? Do we still not have a deficit and under-funded SS?

I recommend reading some E.P. Thompson, I.F. Stone, and Howard Zinn on the history of unions.

I will check them out in the future.

It's capitalism. Piling up money for the bosses is what capitalism does. It's how it works. Of course, lost in the bargain are tens of millions of Americans....

Communism did not work. Socialism? with France and Canada? Where certain parts of the economy are socialized? In Canada though, they vote for the benefit, and then vote down the tax increase to pay for it. Then the government goes ahead and raises the taxes anywise to help pay for it, because they believe it is a good idea.

This is a problem. It seems to me that everyone wants to have a free lunch and not pay for anything. You have to work or pay for it somehow. It is not free nor given out of thin air. Maybe education, would help. Assuming willing participants, for you can lead a horse to water, yet they will drink when and if they are ready.

Robert,

I said these things in my last post:

I have no problem with a fair wage. I have no problem someone getting what the market can provide.

I have no problem with someone making a fair wage to live off of. I do have a problem with cashier's making 8+ times other people. You say the "Math" does not make sense. Now do you understand why it did not make sense in Genesee County? Why it did not make sense to support further Union action for pay raises? A rebalance was required. It did occur. Many of the small business went out of business. The large chains closed down stores, and non-union people bought the stores and opened them 90 days later, while hiring n at non-union wages.

Cashiers do not make eight to ten times minimum wage, so the "math," you cite makes little sense to me.

Cashiers did make 8 times what others made in 1976 in Genesee county. This is the most extreme ratio, yet it did exist until the readjustment occurred.

And again--since you never quite seem to respond--exactly how do you propose that hard-working people who happen to work in groceries survive, pay mortgages, feed their kids, handle college expenses and medical expenses, if they do not get paid a decent wage and they do not get benefits? What precisely do you suggest that they do?

Robert: See above. I have no problem with people making a living. I did not come from money. One grand mother worked in the school district only after my grandfather broke his back falling 30 feet from a tree. The grand father maybe had 8th grade education. The parents of those grandparents were small dirt farmers. The other grandparents were farmers, and my grand mother was also a field-trained nurse who worked in the hospitals during the winter. This meant they had to leave the farm and live in a basement of other relatives just to get by. My Mother got a scholarship for one year in France, and took it. She then came back and went to a religious university as both grand parents were very religious. The school allowed for them to help work off and pay off over time their tuition. This is where she meets my father. My father was getting an education for being a dental technician in those days. It was his job to make the crowns and the false teeth, and plates, etc., ..., . He could not get a job in his home state. He came out to Michigan with his new bride. He moved to find work. Once here, he could not just get by alone. My mother would reupholster chairs and couches for extra money as they say to pay the bills. My mother would even trade her labor with starting doctors so they could get used equipment for their waiting room or tables, and she could recover them for exchange of services. Yes, it was funny to see that exchange occurring as a young child when others would pay cash, and instead they looked up numbers in a book for my family and me.

MY father left the dental business for two reason. The Auto manufacturers made more money, and also could get health benefits. Even with those health benefits, my mother still did her side jobs to help pay the bills including medical and food. My Mother later worked as a bus driver, and even was my own bus drive for school. Imagine the pain for most kids. I cared not. I always smiled and said yes, that is my mom!

Our vacations were going north to a campsite and camping for two weeks. We did not travel nor had lots of toys, yet I did not feel bad.

Later my Mother Died of Cancer over a three year period while I was in High school. This meant I had to step up and do more while in high school. I had to help my younger brother and my Dad. I had responsibilities to my family. I had jobs to help pay for my lunch money and or spending money.

In college I started out in U of M Flint not Ann Arbor, because I with a little help from my father could afford it. I later transferred to U of M Ann Arbor, and ran out of money real fast and changed majors and came back to U of M Flint. I graduated in 6 years because I had to work 40 to 60 hours a week to help pay for the college. I wanted it so I did it. I did not have new cars, nor did I have designer clothes, nor all the toys, nor cash to spend. Yet, I made my choices.

I graduate, found a job, got married, and then later divorced. All based upon me. It was not someone else. I did not wait for someone to come along and give me something. I went out and found a way to do it myself, yes with some help from my family, as I stated. Yet, we were neither by far the worse off nor the best off. Yet, I seemed to be able to make a step up as people will say it, in the social standing, because now I am an engineer.

Yet, to get there, I got beat, and stabbed, and shot at, and worked late hours, ..., . All in the name of my goal and desire. I recognize that maybe not everyone can do what I did. Maybe they are not as lucky as I was, and may have been killed or serious hurt.

I have a close friend. Barely graduate high school. The woman he married just wanted to stay home and raise kids. They were and are some of the happiest people I know. They live in a small house, they rent, they have one car, that I gave them, until they can pay me. I do not expect payment. They have two kids, that call me Uncle. I buy them presents and toys for birthdays and holidays, yet nether child is hurting for cloths, food, toys, or even love. Yes, the mother now works, and he makes $14 an hour. Yes, it is difficult, sometimes they are late on phone bills or what have you. Yet, they do live and in my opinion raised a couple of nice kids. Could it be easier for them? Yes it could. With out just plain giving them something, I do not know how it could be done. Both of them are proud and happy people. They do not get upset with me and my house, or my convertible, or my truck. They are happy where they are.

My Brother has no degree and makes $65K a year writing software for a grocery store, for their database and ordering system. He taught himself how to code and went out and trained himself and found what he wanted.

I have another high school friend who did something similar. Except he makes $75k + (* More than me *) with no degree. He is graduating this semester with a 4-year degree from the U of Phoenix. He worked his way into a position, works lots of hours because he is over his head, and then also got trained and school at the companies expense. I am happy for him. His mother never worked, except raise kids , and his father was a truck driver. It was not handed to him either.

I have another friend whose parents' own a small take out restaurant. He got some help just like I did going through school, and he paid for the rest by working. He worked in an outsource shop and went to school on their dime after his parents could no longer help him. He got a job making good money and then got his master's degree, and now makes even more money. All because he wanted it, and found a way to make it happen.

I have a few more friends, that are similar, yet I think you get the point.

We all wanted something, or were happy and did what was necessary.

So, please explain to me, how the little guy is to get a head? Some people do, others do not. I do not believe it is because of the system holding them back and or keeping them in their place. Once again, just my opinion, based upon my experiences.

Question on Bethlehem Steel. Did not the new company that bought them out have to provide for their retirement account? If not then was it a percentage on the dollar, or nothing at all?

Could you point me in the right direction here.

You state I do not answer you. I think I do. Yet, you do not answer me, or at least I do not see it.

As to Social Security, I agree that it looks bad. Could we agree that people who never paid in should not pull out? Can we agree that it should be used as supplement in retirement, and not for disabilities? Those disabilities may deserve to be compensated by our society, yet not from the social security fund. A new tax would have to be raised to pay for these other payments from out the social security fund.
:asian:

Any Comments about the Monster Social Security?