Farenheit 9/11

[Cruentus]

Oopps...I almost forgot.

6....5.....4 days left!

:boing2:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Oopps...I almost forgot.

6....5.....4 days left!

:boing2:

I guess I need to go find something else to do Friday

 

[rmcrobertson]

Just for the sheer hell of it:

1. "Moore is a jerk." Oh, really. Have you met? How do you happen to know this? Did he kick your dog, your cat, your kid? It's quite common to make these assumptions about personality when we disagree, especially about serious issues--I tend to feel that Ronald Reagan was a creep, for example--but it isn't rational, and it very likely isn't accurate.

2. He's playing a character--don't let the, "cinema verite," quality of his films fool you. It's a construct, not a person.

3. You're offended by what he seems to have to say? Fine. I'm offended by the fact that I can flip on the radio every day of the week and hear Michael Savage spout bile, or Rush Limbaugh personally insult people with whom he disagrees, and the whole sick crew of 'em attack their fellow Americans' decency and patriotism simply because they disagree with their political and intellectual stands. I'm angered by the fact that I can flip on the radio and hear these bozos call for various forms of violence against other human beings--and get paid very well for it, too, thank you. I'm even pissed off by the fact that I can flip on the TV and see the likes of Bill O'Reilly do pretty much the same, a little more politely, intelligently and discreetly; that there's a host of these guys who have followed McLauglin in convincincing people that screaming and bullying is the same thing as discussion and dissent. Oh, and I don't much care for their, "poor, poor, miserable, picked-upon by those meanie liberals," approach, either. It's not intelligent, it's not funny, it's mean-spirited stupidity being broadcast by handsomely-paid propagandists.

4. So, when Moore gets a regular TV and/or radio show, and gets paid several mil a year to call people traitors, and immoral, and all the rest of it, why, then you can afford to be offended too. When he gets paid to demand that people be thrown out of the country, or hanged, or shot, you can get offended too. Until then, I guess you're going to have to take umbrage at his calling for the enforcement of the law. I guess you'll have to remain miffed about his constant, reiterated assertion that even rich and powerful people ought to be called to account for what they do, and that everybody ought to get a fair break. Oooh wow, now that's un-American.

5. A lot of what people get upset about is the simple portrayal of reality. It's the mirroring that does it, just as in Frederick Wiseman's films, and martial artists ought to know a little something about mirroring.

6. So if'n you don't like the movies, say so by all means. Attack the facts and show where they're wrong. Expose the times that Moore distorts reality, citing your sources for better information. Or would that take work, and knowledge?

7. Sheesh.

 

[Cruentus]

I guess I need to go find something else to do Friday

Come on Rich! Come drink the cool-aid with us! I'll be doctoring up my 9th degree black belt certificate, then it's too the theatre we go.

We've got a party goin' on so far. It's Kate and I for sure. Nate and some chick might come. If my other Brother Jim comes, you nestle up with him during the movie so you won't have to watch the scary parts. :rofl:

Come party with us! artyon:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just for the sheer hell of it:

1. "Moore is a jerk." Oh, really. Have you met? How do you happen to know this? Did he kick your dog, your cat, your kid? It's quite common to make these assumptions about personality when we disagree, especially about serious issues--I tend to feel that Ronald Reagan was a creep, for example--but it isn't rational, and it very likely isn't accurate.

2. He's playing a character--don't let the, "cinema verite," quality of his films fool you. It's a construct, not a person.

3. You're offended by what he seems to have to say? Fine. I'm offended by the fact that I can flip on the radio every day of the week and hear Michael Savage spout bile, or Rush Limbaugh personally insult people with whom he disagrees, and the whole sick crew of 'em attack their fellow Americans' decency and patriotism simply because they disagree with their political and intellectual stands. I'm angered by the fact that I can flip on the radio and hear these bozos call for various forms of violence against other human beings--and get paid very well for it, too, thank you. I'm even pissed off by the fact that I can flip on the TV and see the likes of Bill O'Reilly do pretty much the same, a little more politely, intelligently and discreetly; that there's a host of these guys who have followed McLauglin in convincincing people that screaming and bullying is the same thing as discussion and dissent. Oh, and I don't much care for their, "poor, poor, miserable, picked-upon by those meanie liberals," approach, either. It's not intelligent, it's not funny, it's mean-spirited stupidity being broadcast by handsomely-paid propagandists.

4. So, when Moore gets a regular TV and/or radio show, and gets paid several mil a year to call people traitors, and immoral, and all the rest of it, why, then you can afford to be offended too. When he gets paid to demand that people be thrown out of the country, or hanged, or shot, you can get offended too. Until then, I guess you're going to have to take umbrage at his calling for the enforcement of the law. I guess you'll have to remain miffed about his constant, reiterated assertion that even rich and powerful people ought to be called to account for what they do, and that everybody ought to get a fair break. Oooh wow, now that's un-American.

5. A lot of what people get upset about is the simple portrayal of reality. It's the mirroring that does it, just as in Frederick Wiseman's films, and martial artists ought to know a little something about mirroring.

6. So if'n you don't like the movies, say so by all means. Attack the facts and show where they're wrong. Expose the times that Moore distorts reality, citing your sources for better information. Or would that take work, and knowledge?

7. Sheesh.

Robert not sure if this was directed at me or anyone in particular.

So here goes.

1) Yes, we meet.

2) In character that might be fine, but like I said before, he did not wish to do a followup about Flint, when he could not paint the big companies in the bad light. One sided.

3) I do not like Rush either, and like I said before if he has a movie I would not recommend to go to it either.

4) I am offended, because he stated he helped out Flint. I still do not see the results of his help.

5) I use the mirror tactic myself here for posting, and it usually makes the point. The difference is that I admit that I am not 100% right all the time.

6) I did post where he distorted the truth. He found a red neck who sold rabbits for food or pets. He made it sound like everyone from Flint had to eat rabbits to get by because the big ole bad corp put them on the street. He stated he helped out Flint and it is better because of his movie. I do not see it. It is better because people know there is not chance of getting a job with with the big bad corp. Also to do with the multiple universities and collegees that have sprung up, and or grown in the last 20 years. Nothing to do with his propaganda about the big bad corp hurting the little worker. I discussed this earlier, about the wages and the issues involved. Sorry if I did not explain it well to you and others.

7) I agree Sheesh!

 

[Rich Parsons]

Come on Rich! Come drink the cool-aid with us! I'll be doctoring up my 9th degree black belt certificate, then it's too the theatre we go.

We've got a party goin' on so far. It's Kate and I for sure. Nate and some chick might come. If my other Brother Jim comes, you nestle up with him during the movie so you won't have to watch the scary parts. :rofl:

Come party with us! artyon:

No Kool-aid for me. And I thought Jim Jones was out of the business. Oh you mean your little brother Jimmy.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Robert

You can't see it, but I lit and held aloft a lighter while reading #3.

Rich

I imagine it must be frustruating for the folks in Flint who didn't see help coming from the film distribution. I still think it was a worthwhile documentary - I certainly didn't get the impression from the rabbit woman that all the folks in Flint were doing likewise, just that woman. But I can understand being a person living in town and being pissed that I thought that was how my town was being portrayed.

FM

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry, Rich, but when you met--what exactly did he do to you that was so bad?

I'd also note that it's not exactly distorting the facts if you portray what's real. The, "Pets or Meat," lady's real, right? He ran into her sign driving down the street while filming, right? Yes, the context's important--but he simply filmed what he saw, in this case. He didn't make her up, any more than he made up the bank that passes out guns in, "Bowling for Columbine."

I still cannot see exactly how in the hell Moore's responsible for GM pulling out of Flint, or what's happened in the--what, 20 years?--since "Roger & Me," came out. What, Mike started corporate capitalism and its present internationalist trend? He passed NAFTA? Huh?

If he took credit for anything good that happened in Flint afterwards, that's bad. (Not as bad as, say, launching an undeclared war for no particular really good reason, or cheating old ladies out of gas and electricity money, or gassing Bhopal, but bad.) But I still don't see anything awful--Savage and his ilk, too, do far worse things and carry out far worse distortions five nights a week, and I don't see a thread here bemoaning that.

Hm.

 

[Cruentus]

Heh. My turn to rant. Or...how about I let our frind Mike do it for us...

From: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php

Some People Still Don't Want You To See My Movie... From Michael Moore


Friends,

We're a week away from the nationwide opening of "Fahrenheit 9/11" and not a day goes by where we don't have some new battle to fight thanks to those who are still working overtime to keep people from seeing this film. What's their problem? Are they worried about something?

A Republican PR firm has formed a fake grassroots front group called "Move America Forward" to harass and intimidate theater owners into not showing "Fahrenheit 9/11." These are the same people who successfully badgered CBS into canceling the Reagan mini-series a few months ago. And they are spending a ton of money this week to threaten movie theaters who even think about showing our movie.

As of this morning, a little over 500 theaters have agreed to show the movie beginning next Friday, June 25. There are three national/regional theater chains who, as of today, have not booked the movie in their theaters. One theater owner in Illinois has reported receiving death threats.

The right wing usually wins these battles. Their basic belief system is built on censorship, repression, and keeping people ignorant. They want to limit or snuff out any debate or dissension. They also don't like pets and are mean to small children. Too many of them are named "Fred."

This new nut group is the Right's last hope in limiting how many people can see this movie. All of their other efforts have failed. Let's recap:

1. Roger Friedman at FOX News reported that the head of the company which first agreed to fund our film “got calls from Republican friends” pressuring them to back out. And they did. But... Miramax immediately picked up the film! Except...

2. Michael Eisner, the chairman of Disney, then blocked Miramax (a company owned by Disney) from releasing the film once it was finished. But... public attention and embarrassment forced Disney to let the Weinstein brothers of Miramax find another distributor! But...

3. Instead of a new distributor stepping right in -- as all the media predicted would happen -- it took another month to find distributors who would take on this movie. A number of other distributors, thanks to various pressures, were afraid to get involved. It looked for a while that we would be distributing this ourselves. But then Lions Gate and IFC Films rode in to the rescue!

So, we have beaten back all attempts to kill this movie, and the only thing in the way of you now seeing "Fahrenheit 9/11" is this Republican big-money front group trying to force theaters not to show the movie.

Please, contact your local theaters and let them know you want to see "Fahrenheit 9/11." Tell them that some people don't know that this is America and that we believe in freedom of speech and the importance of ALL voices being heard. (The members of MoveOn.org—an ACTUAL grassroots organization—have done a very cool thing. They are pledging to send a message to theater owners and are planning to attend a showing of the film on its opening weekend.)

I appreciate their efforts, but you don’t have to be a member of MoveOn to help stop this effort to keep “Fahrenheit 9/11” from making it to screens across the country. If a theater in your area is planning to show the film, just give them a call and thank them for standing up for the freedom of speech. If your local theater isn't showing the film, call them and let them know that you would like to see it and you'd like them to show it.

The White House and their minions in our media have presented one distorted version of the truth after another for the past four years. All we are asking for is the right to show what they HAVEN'T shown us, the real truth. The truth that ain't pretty (and is, sadly, damningly hilarious).

On top of all this, the MPAA gave the film an "R" rating. I want all teenagers to see this film. There is nothing in the film in terms of violence that we didn't see on TV every night at the dinner hour during the Vietnam War. Of course, that's the point, isn't it? The media have given the real footage from Iraq a "cleansing" -- made it look nice, easy to digest. Mario Cuomo has offered to be our lawyer in appealing this ruling by the MPAA. Frankly, I would like to think the MPAA is saying that the actions by the Bush administration are so abhorrent and revolting, we need to protect our children from seeing what they have done. In that case, the film should be rated NC-17!

However it turns out, I trust all of you teenagers out there will find your way into a theater to see this movie. If the government believes it is OK to send slightly older teenagers to their deaths in Iraq, I think at the very least you should be allowed to see what they are going to draft you for in a couple of years.

Finally, some very sophisticated individuals have been hacking into and shutting down our website. It is an hourly fight to keep it up. We are going to find out who is doing this and we are going to pursue a criminal prosecution. I'm preparing lots of cool stuff for the site so watch for new items on it next week (www.fahrenheit911.com and www.michaelmoore.com).

Thanks again for your support and I hope to see you at the movies on opening night, June 25.

Yours,

Michael Moore

PS. I am sponsoring a number of benefits around the country next week for local and national peace and justice groups, including Military Families Speak Out and September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows. Please check your local papers and my website next week for further details.

PPS. Also, I am going to be on the “Late Show with David Letterman” on Friday night. It's on CBS at 11:35 PM Eastern and Pacific. And on Monday morning (June 21) I will be on “The Today Show” on NBC. Next week, Jon Stewart and Conan. I'd go on O'Reilly but, like a coward, he walked out on a screening we invited him to (with Al Franken just a few rows away!). I personally caught him sneaking out. Embarrassed, he tried to change the subject. He said, "When are you coming on my show?" and I said, "Turn around and watch the rest of the movie and I will come on your show." He walked out. Fair and balanced.

Silly me...I thought I would be free to see this movie regardless. Darned civil liberties...who needs em'? Looks like I'll be having to double check a theater near me.

Love or hate the guy, shouldn't it make ya'll wonder why a film with (according to claims, but we;ll have to see) no more violence then what is on the daily news would have an R rating. Hmmm...and PR groups being paid to preassure theaters into not seeing the film...?

Naw...but we don't have a problem in our country...not at all. If everyone just works real hard, then we'll all be happy. Haliburton for President...

Your Friend,

Thomas E. Dewey

 

[michaeledward]

I was reading the michael moore web site ... apparently, both Al Franken and Bill O'Reilly were in attendance for the New York screening. It's a good thing that the theater was big.

I hear that O'Reilly (who has been doing a good job of slamming, while not slamming the movie) left before the movie was 1/2 way complete. Of course, that doesn't stop him from proclaiming that Moore is a liar.

Also of note, Moore has set up a 'Rapid Response Fact Check' team to address the rants that the movie generates. When some talking head says that XYZ in the movie isn't true, Moore will respond with what was in the movie, why it was included, and what was left out of the movie for insufficient evidence.

Of course, those that don't care to know, won't check. But it will be nice, for those who care to know, can find more information than just what the movie projects.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

Sorry, Rich, but when you met--what exactly did he do to you that was so bad?

I'd also note that it's not exactly distorting the facts if you portray what's real. The, "Pets or Meat," lady's real, right? He ran into her sign driving down the street while filming, right? Yes, the context's important--but he simply filmed what he saw, in this case. He didn't make her up, any more than he made up the bank that passes out guns in, "Bowling for Columbine."

I still cannot see exactly how in the hell Moore's responsible for GM pulling out of Flint, or what's happened in the--what, 20 years?--since "Roger & Me," came out. What, Mike started corporate capitalism and its present internationalist trend? He passed NAFTA? Huh?

If he took credit for anything good that happened in Flint afterwards, that's bad. (Not as bad as, say, launching an undeclared war for no particular really good reason, or cheating old ladies out of gas and electricity money, or gassing Bhopal, but bad.) But I still don't see anything awful--Savage and his ilk, too, do far worse things and carry out far worse distortions five nights a week, and I don't see a thread here bemoaning that.

Hm.

Robert,

He did not answer my questions. He just walked away, and then later left town quietly.

As to the rabbit lady, I could find others just like her in any large city. Turth is the perception of truth. If I only give one perception and this is all people see then that becomes the truth to them.

Oh, and I cannot believe you actually went and did this. You changed the subject, and lofted a red herring out there. Robert, I thought better of you. I agree you are looking for facts. I maybe a single data point in a 100 million people. Yet, whe asked, I will give the data I have and the truth as I see it.

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sounds to me, Rich, like you can't stand what the guy's saying and you're looking for reasons after the fact.

If he quietly walked away, I don't quite see how that makes him the devil. Hate to say it, but isn't that what martial artists are supposed to do, rather than fight?

And again, I don't see that he's made anything up. I don't see that he's grossly distorted what he saw. And I don't see how he stuck it to Flint--or has GM brought all the jobs back?

There're very few voices in this country that still offer more than the Official Market Line, and Moore's one of 'em. Moreover, he's one of the few still sticking up for plain old working people, and their right to have a decent job for decent pay.

I wonder why it is that nobody ever gets on these forums and screams when, say, Levi-Strauss pulls its last jobs out of this country. I wonder why more people don't find it a tad offensive when programming jobs and tax returns start gettting shipped to India, so even if you HAVE busted your tail and retrained, you're still screwed. I wonder why Moore's the issue--ok, actually I don't wonder. It's because he's not radical enough, right?

Nope. It's because he's more or less showing reality, and that reality conforms neither to the chirpy propaganda we get from TV and business, nor to the whacko distortions of everything coming out of the Bush administration.

 

[Cruentus]

Nope. It's because he's more or less showing reality, and that reality conforms neither to the chirpy propaganda we get from TV and business, nor to the whacko distortions of everything coming out of the Bush administration.

Rich and few others are acceptions to this rule, but...

I'd say that for most people, they don't like Moore or what anyone has to say that they don't agree with because they can't think out of their idiolectic box; as they cling to their perception of reality like a child clings to a security blank it at night to make the monsters go away.

Unfortunatily, no one can be told what the matrix is...you have to see it for yourself.

Some would rather just take the blue pill....

Your mentor,
Morpheus

 

[Cruentus]

Oh yea...

3 days left...