Extentions

[Kenpodoc]

I was watching a video tape of a seminar which included a technique line. (note: kenpo is much easier whien I lie back and criticise others from the comfort of my Couch.) The instructor and several of the blackbelts performed well. Most of the Brown and Black belts, however, quickly became disorganized. There was no focus and target selection was sloppy. Overall I felt I was watching a pattycake demo. I have slowly and begrudgingly come to agree that the extensions are "food for thought" and add value to Kenpo.

1. Should extensions be taught before the base technique can be done with force, accuracy and focus?

2. Does the initial sloppiness resove spontaneously and just be seen as a Learning stage.

Yours,

Jeff

 

[Michael Billings]

1. Should extensions be taught before the base technique can be done with force, accuracy and focus?

NO

2. Does the initial sloppiness resove spontaneously and just be seen as a Learning stage.

I HOPE NOT.

It is up to the instructor as to whether or not he/she will tolerate this. Is this putting your best foot forward at a camp or seminar when blasting or patty cake are more important than technique? I don't think so. Are you representing your teacher, fellow students, or association the best you can?

So now the problem becomes: Are they even aware of how they look? Or do they think they are doing "good Kenpo". I have been to schools and events where the Black Belts looked just like their teacher ... and it was not pretty. Worse, I have been to schools where the instructor CAN DO, but his students CANNOT. Has he/she lost interest in teaching, let it slip to far out of their hands? Where is the quality control? AKSC? Well, that did not work as planned.

Ah well, just keep on teaching and making a positive impact where you can. It is a different world where instructors learn from seminars, going from place to place for their knowledge. Lots they can learn, but this assumes a good solid base and does not replace the teaching, or coaching of a good instructor. You cannot learn "how to move" from one seminar. It can take years with a dedicated teacher. But I guess that would be for another thread and is just my opinion. (Yes, I do realize that is the only way some people CAN get any instruction due to location or other circumstances.)

Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[jfarnsworth]

Originally posted by Kenpodoc
1. Should extensions be taught before the base technique can be done with force, accuracy and focus?
Jeff

Not at all.

The second question takes more thought. & I'm at work.

 

[tarabos]

whatever the original intention of the extensions was...there are many, many views on what purpose they really serve. through the years talking to other kenpoists, they all seem to take a different stand on extensions. here are the two main views i get:

1. SYSTEM FILLER

some people view the extensions as a way to pacifiy students who are moving towards black and beyond as well. they look at them as requirements that were put in to make the cirriculum have a longer life, to make it seem to the students they were learning something new. while i don't agree with this view, i can see where they are coming from. these are the same people that complain about them being too long (a complaint that i often share) and too complex (another i share, to a certain degree).

2. ADVANCED TEACHING TOOL

others view the extensions as methods to convey new material such as principles, footwork, strikes, manipulations, flows, etc....without coming up with new techniques to have to learn. after all, EPAK is not a system that tries to give you one straight answer for every outcome, it lets you formulate that answer yourself. i see more merit in this view i would say, as i love some of the extensions...or at least pieces of them. and i think that's all you're really meant to take from them and any other techniqe....pieces. different things that work in different situations.


i believe the extensions are so long at times that most students will get caught up in learning the flow of them and how to apply the whole technique, and then start to wonder how this would ever work in a real situation, missing the whole point of them completely. the extensions are misunderstood at best...and it's not usually the fault of the student, though i wouldn't put all the blame on the instructor.

on the subject of WHEN to teach the extensions...ugh...that's a tough one i think because everyone is different. in a perfect world, the students will learn what they should be learning as they go through the cirriculum just as the instructor has them planned to do. we all know this doesn't always happen though. plus you must take into account all of the different cirriculums out there now. some of them teach the extensions very early on in the "young" brown belt stages...perhaps a bit too early for some students.

but yes i do think a student should be able to show a certain level of proficiency with a certain technique before they are taught the extension to it. on the matter of the brown belts not being able to flow the techniques right away...they are still brown belts after all, not such a big deal. pus they are basically learning something new. they may have been trying to do it too fast at first.

paddy-cake eh? that's the way many, many schools are taking kenpo these days. deny it all you want...the proof is out there whether you choose to see it or not. sometimes people won't believe it's that big of a problem because they are in a good area for kenpo where people really bang out techniques and try new things and really strive to learn the art well. up here in the northeast...i see a lot of crap.

 

[tarabos]

another thing that you mentioned in your original post that is a pretty good point is that it is very easy to just sit back and criticize someone's technique or how they look when they're doing it. this is one of the things i love about the systema mindset, the fact that it doesn't matter what you look like when you defend youself, just that you do....effectively.

we all know that the only way to know if someone is truly doing something effectively is to feel it.

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

I have always been curious about the extensions. I am approaching them in my studies and would like to ask my fellow kenpoists a question.

I like to document what principles i learn and where they occur in the curriculum. Id like to know the names of the new principles found in the extensions?

I searched in Vol. 5 of infinite insights but only found that they exist to introduce new concepts of motion.

Im not looking for explainations of the new principles, just there labels. (ex. economy of motion, point of origin, black dot focus)

:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

For one, Angle of diversification - introduced elsewhere, but taught in extensions. Many, many more upper and lower case inserts that were formerly grafts or what if's, now are part of the technique (and were probably pulled from the extension anyway); More compounded strikes; Survey then re-engage, etc. I have never tried to list them by extension, but it sounds like an interesting project. May want to talk to Prof. Conatser, the Master Blaster and King of Disaster when it comes to things Kenpo.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

Thanks Michael

You are right it does sound interesting, and id like to experience Mr. Conatser insight on the topic. What do you think sir?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Orig. posted by Michael Billings
May want to talk to Prof. Conatser, the Master Blaster and King of Disaster when it comes to things Kenpo in the Q & A thread in the General Kenpo Section.Oss,-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com

ok go there and let talk

:asian:

 

[BlackPhoenix]

I see the EXTENTIONS as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic.

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. "Sometimes Less Is More".

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

whatever the original intention of the extensions was...there are many, many views on what purpose they really serve. through the years talking to other kenpoists, they all seem to take a different stand on extensions. here are the two main views i get:

1. SYSTEM FILLER

some people view the extensions as a way to pacifiy students who are moving towards black and beyond as well. they look at them as requirements that were put in to make the cirriculum have a longer life, to make it seem to the students they were learning something new. while i don't agree with this view, i can see where they are coming from. these are the same people that complain about them being too long (a complaint that i often share) and too complex (another i share, to a certain degree).

2. ADVANCED TEACHING TOOL

others view the extensions as methods to convey new material such as principles, footwork, strikes, manipulations, flows, etc....without coming up with new techniques to have to learn. after all, EPAK is not a system that tries to give you one straight answer for every outcome, it lets you formulate that answer yourself. i see more merit in this view i would say, as i love some of the extensions...or at least pieces of them. and i think that's all you're really meant to take from them and any other techniqe....pieces. different things that work in different situations.


i believe the extensions are so long at times that most students will get caught up in learning the flow of them and how to apply the whole technique, and then start to wonder how this would ever work in a real situation, missing the whole point of them completely. the extensions are misunderstood at best...and it's not usually the fault of the student, though i wouldn't put all the blame on the instructor.

on the subject of WHEN to teach the extensions...ugh...that's a tough one i think because everyone is different. in a perfect world, the students will learn what they should be learning as they go through the cirriculum just as the instructor has them planned to do. we all know this doesn't always happen though. plus you must take into account all of the different cirriculums out there now. some of them teach the extensions very early on in the "young" brown belt stages...perhaps a bit too early for some students.

but yes i do think a student should be able to show a certain level of proficiency with a certain technique before they are taught the extension to it. on the matter of the brown belts not being able to flow the techniques right away...they are still brown belts after all, not such a big deal. pus they are basically learning something new. they may have been trying to do it too fast at first.

paddy-cake eh? that's the way many, many schools are taking kenpo these days. deny it all you want...the proof is out there whether you choose to see it or not. sometimes people won't believe it's that big of a problem because they are in a good area for kenpo where people really bang out techniques and try new things and really strive to learn the art well. up here in the northeast...i see a lot of crap.

 

[MJS]

I see the EXTENTIONS as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic.

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. "Sometimes Less Is More".

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

Refer back to the other Extension thread. My same thoughts can be applied here as well!!!

Mike

 

[BlackPhoenix]

I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down. But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic. Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do. Use logic.

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of danger. It's that simple. "Sometimes Less Is More". A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo. Just my opinion.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

This Is Taken From My Other Post.

whatever the original intention of the extensions was...there are many, many views on what purpose they really serve. through the years talking to other kenpoists, they all seem to take a different stand on extensions. here are the two main views i get:

1. SYSTEM FILLER

some people view the extensions as a way to pacifiy students who are moving towards black and beyond as well. they look at them as requirements that were put in to make the cirriculum have a longer life, to make it seem to the students they were learning something new. while i don't agree with this view, i can see where they are coming from. these are the same people that complain about them being too long (a complaint that i often share) and too complex (another i share, to a certain degree).

2. ADVANCED TEACHING TOOL

others view the extensions as methods to convey new material such as principles, footwork, strikes, manipulations, flows, etc....without coming up with new techniques to have to learn. after all, EPAK is not a system that tries to give you one straight answer for every outcome, it lets you formulate that answer yourself. i see more merit in this view i would say, as i love some of the extensions...or at least pieces of them. and i think that's all you're really meant to take from them and any other techniqe....pieces. different things that work in different situations.


i believe the extensions are so long at times that most students will get caught up in learning the flow of them and how to apply the whole technique, and then start to wonder how this would ever work in a real situation, missing the whole point of them completely. the extensions are misunderstood at best...and it's not usually the fault of the student, though i wouldn't put all the blame on the instructor.

on the subject of WHEN to teach the extensions...ugh...that's a tough one i think because everyone is different. in a perfect world, the students will learn what they should be learning as they go through the cirriculum just as the instructor has them planned to do. we all know this doesn't always happen though. plus you must take into account all of the different cirriculums out there now. some of them teach the extensions very early on in the "young" brown belt stages...perhaps a bit too early for some students.

but yes i do think a student should be able to show a certain level of proficiency with a certain technique before they are taught the extension to it. on the matter of the brown belts not being able to flow the techniques right away...they are still brown belts after all, not such a big deal. pus they are basically learning something new. they may have been trying to do it too fast at first.

paddy-cake eh? that's the way many, many schools are taking kenpo these days. deny it all you want...the proof is out there whether you choose to see it or not. sometimes people won't believe it's that big of a problem because they are in a good area for kenpo where people really bang out techniques and try new things and really strive to learn the art well. up here in the northeast...i see a lot of crap.

 

[Kenpodoc]

I was watching a video tape of a seminar which included a technique line. (note: kenpo is much easier whien I lie back and criticise others from the comfort of my Couch.) The instructor and several of the blackbelts performed well. Most of the Brown and Black belts, however, quickly became disorganized. There was no focus and target selection was sloppy. Overall I felt I was watching a pattycake demo. I have slowly and begrudgingly come to agree that the extensions are "food for thought" and add value to Kenpo.

1. Should extensions be taught before the base technique can be done with force, accuracy and focus?

2. Does the initial sloppiness resove spontaneously and just be seen as a Learning stage.

Yours,

Jeff

Odd to see my own question show up a year later. I hated the extensions when I first saw them but I have changed my mind. Interestingly I find the new movements now spontaneously show in my freestyle. Granted I can't imagine ever following a technique all the way out to the full extension, but the new position recognition has broadened my abilities to adjust to my opponents.

In response to my own questions.

1. No. Don't try to teach extensions till the student can do the base technique cleanly, fluidly and with accuracy and power.

2. Sloppiness can resolve but only if there is an expectation that the techniques be done with fluid accurracy and power.

Jeff

 

[jfarnsworth]

I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work.

I disagree. I look at it as broadening your horizon into different scenario's of motion and building upon my knowledge that I already possess.

Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank.

Again, I somewhat disagree with this statement. Reason being is not all people progress the same nor do they have the same abilities. If I have a bad left arm or maybe a bad leg does this mean that I should have the same abilities as a champion kickboxer? With your statement above you need to look at the people in your studio. Every single person will be there for a different reason. How about the guy that started at 55yrs. old and is a green belt. Will he have the same abilities, technique, stamina, etc. as a 20yr. old that is a green belt as well?

EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure.

Again, not to beat the dead horse, I appreciate your opinion but I disagree. :asian:

If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff.

Now I agree with you

It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down.

Do any of us really know what WE WILL do in a street fight. Probably not our eyes will tell our body what to do.

But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic. Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do. Use logic

I agree again. Only training and time will give you this answer.