Extentions

[BlackPhoenix]

I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down. But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic. Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do. Use logic.

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of danger. It's that simple. "Sometimes Less Is More". A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo. Just my opinion.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

 

[MisterMike]

I think the extensions build on previously learned principles. I learned the original 32 system and manyof them relate to groundwork (opponent is onthe ground, you are stomping with the feet).

I agree, most techniques do not need the extension, but some provide "what-if" solutions.

Do you think most of the kenpo techniques without extensions are meant to be run to completion? Some of them there Brown belt techniques go pretty darn long too. Kinda makes you go -hmmmm

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I learned the original 32 system and manyof them relate to groundwork

I'm not sure I would call this groundwork, but that's a different thread all together.

As for the extensions, I think you're right. Alot of kenpo techniques, even in the AKKI, go well beyond what I would call a real ending. The way Mr. Mills and the Board are teaching the AKKI techniques, most of them will be done by the 3rd or 4th move, that is if the opponent isn't crushed by the second or even the first move. Learning the appropriate body mechanics along with the appropriate targets and angles will go along way to making this a possibility.

However, I look at these extra moves as a redundant (meaning backup) or fail safe system. If you are overwhelmed by the adrenal dump that sets in during such a stressful situation you might not execute the first one, two, or even three moves with any sort of efficiency. Isn't it nice to know that you can fall back on the rest. Besides, a large portion of the techniques contain similiar positions. Within the AKKI curriculum, for instance, we have several Guillotine (or choking) techniques. Depending on our attackers resistance, if any :xtrmshock, we can roll from one particular guillotine tech to another or even bypass the choke and move into a strikedown, buckle, sweep, or throw. By discovering, categorizing, and practicing with these similiar points, you can effectively respond to a number of possible scenarios.

just my opinion.

 

[MJS]

I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down. But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic. Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do. Use logic.

I'm gonna assume that you have no background in Kenpo at all. The extensions are the "What if" or "Even if" methods of dealing with the attack, when the tech., in its 'ideal' phase does not work. This can be due to the attacker punching differently, moving differently, etc. In every art, they have the "What if" senarios. I train in BJJ as well as Arnis, and they both have them! You say just keep hitting. Ok--but is that all you're gonna do? If that hitting isnt working, then you're gonna need something else to do. As for rank--IMO, its not the color of the belt that matters, its the skill that the person has.

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of danger. It's that simple. "Sometimes Less Is More". A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.

As for a boxer. A boxer is a one dimensional fighter. All they do is punch, while someone who trains Kenpo, also kicks, and works strikes that a boxer does not train. IMO, if you really want to be well rounded, you'll be comfortable in all the ranges- punching, kicking, clinching, and grappling. Also, you're going to fight like you train. What happens when a boxer clinches? The ref breaks them and they start again, from a neutral position. If a boxer is facing someone who understands the clinch and grappling, the boxer is gonna be in a world of hurt.

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

When you're fighting, you want to take the other person out of their game. If facing a boxer, the last thing I'm gonna do is trade punches with them. Instead, I'll work kicks, especially the low line kicks, in which a boxer does NOT train and does not know how to defend against. In the clinch, rather than work punches, which being that close, are really not going to be that effective, doing an eye gouge, elbow, knee, and headbutt, and then taking it to the ground would be the best way to go.

This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo. Just my opinion.

Well, that all depends on who you talk to.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

The extensions are not looked at until Brown Belt. The student first has to get a good understanding of the base techs. and then they can expand on the rest.

Mike

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down. But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic. Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do. Use logic.

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of danger. It's that simple. "Sometimes Less Is More". A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo. Just my opinion.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

Maybe because you're not getting the system the way it was designed. Inexperience sucks huh?

Dark Lord

P.S. spelling and grammar count

 

[Bill Lear]

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.

This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo. Just my opinion.

I think that EXTENTIONS should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.

The last time I got into it on the street I had to pull the guys broken front teeth out of my right elbow. Head to head? Not quite. More like head to elbow, before I choked him out.

I guess that Ed Parker stuff really works (at least for me). Not an attack on you or anything, just an observation. I think the extensions should stay. They are there for a reason, not just filler material.

:ultracool

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

The extensions should stay...as should all the variations if you are a Tracy student.

A big mistake in martial arts training is to assume that ALL fights can be won with a single blow or short combination. That is like trying to win every game of chess in the first four moves. You may be able to do that once in a blue moon, but you can't rely on it.

The extensions are a great tool for learning to continue fighting after the initial flurry. Sure, you have to master the basics first, but having a larger repertoire of movements you can execute can give you a serious advantage.

One key in making the base techniques and/or the extensions effective is how you train. Training against resisting opponents who fight back when you try and execute the techniques will show you the value of the extensions and of sparring.

 

[Old Guy]

The extensions are also there to give different reference points. In a fight, you may not find yourself at a beginning of a technique, but recognise a point in the middle of a technique. Techniques are not necessarily the end-all. They are just ideas. The extensions build on these ideas.

For instance, guy throws a kick. You catch it. What now? Start in the middle of Dance of Death. Without the extension, where's the dance? It would not be effective. Filler? Not necessary? Maybe. Good to know? Probably.

OG

 

[MJS]

The extensions are also there to give different reference points. In a fight, you may not find yourself at a beginning of a technique, but recognise a point in the middle of a technique. Techniques are not necessarily the end-all. They are just ideas. The extensions build on these ideas.

For instance, guy throws a kick. You catch it. What now? Start in the middle of Dance of Death. Without the extension, where's the dance? It would not be effective. Filler? Not necessary? Maybe. Good to know? Probably.

OG

Very good point here. I've said this before when I would be teaching a SD class. From time to time, I'd throw out attacks that the students have not learned a defense for yet. 9 times out of 10, they'd stand there, not knowing what to do. I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch, kick, move, etc. and they would always say yes. I'd explain to them that the techs. are just there to give a reference point. In a fight, you cant possibly, as the attacker is getting ready to punch you, stand there and say, "Ok, now which one of my 50 punch techs. am I gonna use?" Instead, you need to react. You may find yourself doing parts of 2 or 3 different techs. As I said in my first post, the ext. are there to take care of the "What if/Even if" situations.

DKL brought up a very good point. There is a chance that if one isnt learning the system properly, then how can you have an understanding of it???

Mike

 

[MisterMike]

DKL brought up a very good point. There is a chance that if one isnt learning the system properly, then how can you have an understanding of it???

Mike

Easy, you have an understanding of a different system :uhyeah:

 

[bdparsons]

It seems the real issue here is how a system (in this case Kenpo) trains to be able to adapt to the changing flow of a hand-to-hand encounter. Personally I view extensions as a tool in training spontaneous action/reaction. I agree with the individual who said it's really a matter of recognition. The gist of training in any martial art, including western-style boxing is the ability to recognize what to defend against, at least initially. Training extensions in Kenpo gives you something else, another position to recognize.

In the IKCA we use a process known as "Blending and Borrowing", similar to what other Kenpoists would call grafting. The process of adapting mid-stream because something doesn't go "ideally" is just a matter of repetition and recognition. But if I haven't seen it before, I won't recognize it. Is there a limit? Sure, but remember you're only needing to recognize snapshots of body position, not entire moves. This is what a Kenpoist is reacting to. then acting upon.

Learning extensions leads to developing extensions which leads to the ability to spontaneously flow in an encounter. The more you're required to think in training, the less you'll have to think on the street.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[MJS]

Easy, you have an understanding of a different system :uhyeah:

True. We're both doing EPAK. Only difference is the way that it was taught. I have been fortunate to chat with Clyde a few times, and hes enlightened me to many different things. I definately have a different outlook on the art now!

Mike

 

[BlackPhoenix]

There are some really good points here that were made. That's the really cool thing about Kenpo isn't it. Freedom of thought and expression. Just to let some of these people know two things...I have trained in Kenpo for a long time and two I have had a couple of high ranking first generation instructors agree with me. But that is alson their opinion of thoughts. Respect to all of you in Kenpo.

 

[BlackPhoenix]

This is a very good point, but mind you that if you train the base techniques realistic enough ( therre are many drills and ways of doing this ), you'll find that what you do in the extentions is pretty much the same as what you can get out of the base. With some exceptions.

The extensions are also there to give different reference points. In a fight, you may not find yourself at a beginning of a technique, but recognise a point in the middle of a technique. Techniques are not necessarily the end-all. They are just ideas. The extensions build on these ideas.

For instance, guy throws a kick. You catch it. What now? Start in the middle of Dance of Death. Without the extension, where's the dance? It would not be effective. Filler? Not necessary? Maybe. Good to know? Probably.

OG

 

[BlackPhoenix]

Good point here also. But I don't think you were able to do that from learning an extention. You reacted and it worked. Right on. Shame on him for starting up with you...LOL

The last time I got into it on the street I had to pull the guys broken front teeth out of my right elbow. Head to head? Not quite. More like head to elbow, before I choked him out.

I guess that Ed Parker stuff really works (at least for me). Not an attack on you or anything, just an observation. I think the extensions should stay. They are there for a reason, not just filler material.

:ultracool

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

This is a very good point, but mind you that if you train the base techniques realistic enough ( therre are many drills and ways of doing this ), you'll find that what you do in the extentions is pretty much the same as what you can get out of the base. With some exceptions.

Wrong again. There are movements not seen in the base techs. and you only see them once in the extenSions, like the throw in Destructive Twins, the downward punch to the bladder in Thrusting Salute, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

My suggestion, get another instructor that understands the art as a whole before slicing it up.


Dark Lord

 

[8253]

i personally dont consider any extention as filler or busy work, i consider it as broadening horizons.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

My only issue with extensions is personal...I can't remember them. After a time, they all start feeling/looking alike, and my wee-little brain gets confused. I have to make mental shortcuts like, "when in doubt, cover out".

There's a little corner of my brain where obscure facts from grade school lodge themselves, and I can't forget them if I try. The opposite problem is finding an obscure corner for things I want to remember. I forgot to remember to forget the things I no longer need to remember.

Just goes to show you that...um...wait a minute...I was going somewhere with this, but I can't recall.

Oh well. Maybe it'll come back to me later, when I need it.

Dave

 

[MJS]

This is a very good point, but mind you that if you train the base techniques realistic enough ( therre are many drills and ways of doing this ), you'll find that what you do in the extentions is pretty much the same as what you can get out of the base. With some exceptions.

Gotta disagree with you here. You're making it sound like if you train the 'ideal' tech over and over, then that is all that you'll need? What about the "what if/even if" situations? Thats what the extensions are all about....the What If!!! What are you going to do if that "ideal" phase tech. doesnt work or if something goes wrong? You had better have something to fall back on.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Just to let some of these people know two things...I have trained in Kenpo for a long time and two I have had a couple of high ranking first generation instructors agree with me. But that is alson their opinion of thoughts. Respect to all of you in Kenpo.

And exactly is how long? And who are the first gen. Inst. that you're referring to??

Mike