Expected/required weekly class time

[jthomas1600]

In the year or so I've been following the TKD forum here I've noticed quite a few threads on subjects like "how long to black belt", "how long to first dan", etc. But I don't know that I've seen too many on how much class attendance is required or expected. I'm guessing the average student attends 2-3 classes a week and the average length of class is 1 hour or slightly more. So average class time is maybe 3-4 hours? It seems the general consensus on here is that 3-4 to black belt is acceptable. Is this with the 3-4 hours of class time? If so, for those of you who feel 4 years to black is about right, could a student cut that almost in half with 6 or 7 hours of in class training each week? If not, why?

 

[andyjeffries]

I'm guessing the average student attends 2-3 classes a week and the average length of class is 1 hour or slightly more. So average class time is maybe 3-4 hours?

Before I got my first dan I was training for 9 hours per week, but I would say 3-4 hours per week is more normal for our club (we only train officially twice per week and no longer do any unofficial extra days).

It seems the general consensus on here is that 3-4 to black belt is acceptable. Is this with the 3-4 hours of class time?

I'd say 4-5 years for that 3-4 hours of class time.

If so, for those of you who feel 4 years to black is about right, could a student cut that almost in half with 6 or 7 hours of in class training each week? If not, why?

I think that 3 years is really a minimum and my reason is quite simple, you need time to digest what you're learning and that takes time. You need time to rest so you can make better gains.

If I was asked to work 16 hours per day at my job, I wouldn't achieve twice the amount as my normal 8 hour day - fatigue would slow me down and my mind wouldn't have the normal amount of down time to be creative in.

 

[StudentCarl]

Students are expected to attend at least two classes a week and pre-test to be allowed to test, so time is only part of the equation. That translates to about two hours a week, but it varies. I'm near the upper end with 10-12 hours a week, but there are minimum calendar limits as well: for instance I must be a 2nd gup for 6 months before I'm eligible to pre-test toward 1st gup. One of the wild cards is how much a student practices outside of class. Some practice at home and some don't. Those who do forms or sparring or both on the competition team are much more prepared, though the time requirements apply the same.

Like Andy mentions, there's a certain amount of 'digestion' time or maturing in grade that has to happen.

 

[Lord-Humongous]

From the Encyclopedia of TaeKwon Do:
18 month program/1.5 hrs day, 6 days a week/702 hrs training to BB test
12 month program/4 hrs day, 6 days a week/1248 hrs to test

 

[jthomas1600]

I completely agree about needing time to process and integrate the materiel. So I don't think no matter how much you train you could cut a four year average down to one...probably not even down to two. And I agree that you reach a point of diminishing returns in regards to hours spent in training. So 12 hours is probably not twice as good as 6, but 8 hours might be twice as good as 4.

 

[jthomas1600]

From the Encyclopedia of TaeKwon Do:
18 month program/1.5 hrs day, 6 days a week/702 hrs training to BB test
12 month program/4 hrs day, 6 days a week/1248 hrs to test

Wow. See from my view 4 hours a day 6 days a week would just be overload. I suppose if I were 20, single, and could take a year off from work I could see it. But for most people it doesn't seem like this would be anywhere near manageable. Even the 18 month program seems a little bit much.

 

[Earl Weiss]

From the Encyclopedia of TaeKwon Do:
18 month program/1.5 hrs day, 6 days a week/702 hrs training to BB test
12 month program/4 hrs day, 6 days a week/1248 hrs to test

You need to keep in mind this was a formulation put together for people who were in the military or about that age. The idea of younger children doing this was not really a factor at that time. I believe a third program was also listed.

 

[harlan]

Assuming that this refers strictly to dojo/mat time, I'd be interested in the break out of those hours on drills, kata, partner drills, etc. and the number of forms & techniques required. It interests me because most of the TKD classes I've observed are heavily into fitness, and seem to spend a good quarter of the time with pure exercise.

From the Encyclopedia of TaeKwon Do:
18 month program/1.5 hrs day, 6 days a week/702 hrs training to BB test
12 month program/4 hrs day, 6 days a week/1248 hrs to test

 

[Lord-Humongous]

You need to keep in mind this was a formulation put together for people who were in the military or about that age. The idea of younger children doing this was not really a factor at that time. I believe a third program was also listed.

Agree, this was probably geared to military training in martial arts. Sport practioners would not train with this intensity. There is a 30 month program in the Encyclopedia as well. 1.5 hrs a day, 3x a week and totaling 585hrs. I suppose the diminishing quantity of hours as the program gets longer relates to the maturity that the above poster's mention comes with time in grade.

 

[puunui]

At the Chung Do Kwan in the 1940's, you were expected to train two hours per day, five days per week. That translates into ten hours per week, 500 per year. If you did that, then you could expect to test for 1st Dan in two years. So training time would be 1000 hours.

The Moo Duk Kwan in the 1940's expected you to train two hours per day, five days per week. If you did that, you could expect to test for 1st Dan in one year, so training time would be 500 hours.

Most dojang today expect their students to train two times per week, forty five to sixty minutes per class, which equals about 75 to 100 hours per year.

Dojang in Korea train one hour per day, five days per week for a total of 250 hours per year. At one hour/ 2X week, it would take two and a half years to get the same amount of hours, about three years and four months for 45 minute classes.

 

[puunui]

Sport practioners would not train with this intensity.

"Sport" practitioners train more intensely. For example, Steven Lopez trains about 6 hours per day, six days a week. That is 36 hours per week, 1872 hours per year. Training two times per week, one hour per class, it would take nineteen years to match what Steven Lopez does in a year. He visited hawaii after he won his first gold medal at world championships in 2001. When I asked him if there was anything he wanted to do during his visit, he told me he felt like running.

 

[andyjeffries]

Most dojang today expect their students to train two times per week, forty five to sixty minutes per class, which equals about 75 to 100 hours per year...about three years and four months for 45 minute classes.

Seriously? Some dojang only train for 45 minute classes? That's CRAZY!

We train 2 hours on a Tuesday and 1.5 hours on a Thursday (it used to be 2 hours, but we had to trim back the hours for finance reasons). The children train for 1 hour on a Tuesday.

I can't imagine training for 45 minutes, by the time you've warmed up and cooled down, you must have time for a few poomsae!

Wow, honestly shocked!

 

[jthomas1600]

Our classes are only 45 minutes. I've seen some classes (other schools) where the warm up and cool down is pretty casual and eats up a pretty good portion of the class. Not at our school. You need to be lined up and waiting for class and from the time you step on to the mat until the time you step off is pretty non stop. We also have a pretty good size warm up room with plenty of space for stretching, going over your forms and a half dozen or so free standing "bags" to kick. I always go and make sure I have 15 minutes or better to warm up and practice things that need work. Would I rather an hour or more? Yeah, but I make it work. There's no restriction on how much time you spend in the warm up room and some people take back to back classes.

 

[andyjeffries]

Our classes are only 45 minutes. I've seen some classes (other schools) where the warm up and cool down is pretty casual and eats up a pretty good portion of the class. Not at our school. You need to be lined up and waiting for class and from the time you step on to the mat until the time you step off is pretty non stop. We also have a pretty good size warm up room with plenty of space for stretching, going over your forms and a half dozen or so free standing "bags" to kick. I always go and make sure I have 15 minutes or better to warm up and practice things that need work. Would I rather an hour or more? Yeah, but I make it work. There's no restriction on how much time you spend in the warm up room and some people take back to back classes.

Thanks a lot for posting this, very interesting.

It makes a lot more sense when you can warm up (and have a nice area to do so) beforehand so it doesn't take as long to warm you up in class. It also makes more sense if people can take back to back classes (assuming it's not crazy expensive).

Also, didn't mean any offence by comments, it's just that seems like a really short/rushed time to try and learn so much stuff.

 

[mango.man]

We are much like jthomas. When class starts you are expected to have taken care of warming up already. True that class generally starts with some lighter drills before they start going all Team-X on each other's *** but no class time is wasted on stretching and jumping jacks and mountain climbers.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Agree, this was probably geared to military training in martial arts. Sport practioners would not train with this intensity. There is a 30 month program in the Encyclopedia as well. 1.5 hrs a day, 3x a week and totaling 585hrs. I suppose the diminishing quantity of hours as the program gets longer relates to the maturity that the above poster's mention comes with time in grade.

I think it is more akin to a law of diminishing returns. You can load up on quantity in a shoter calender time period, but the body will only advance so quickly, and the mind will only retain so much.

 

[jthomas1600]

Thanks a lot for posting this, very interesting.

It makes a lot more sense when you can warm up (and have a nice area to do so) beforehand so it doesn't take as long to warm you up in class. It also makes more sense if people can take back to back classes (assuming it's not crazy expensive).

Also, didn't mean any offence by comments, it's just that seems like a really short/rushed time to try and learn so much stuff.

I've seen enough of your posts on here to assume no offense was meant, so none was taken.

For what it's worth though that is a legitimate part of this discussion. I think classes at my school are run extremely well and there is no wasted time. But I'm sure many who run 1.5-2 hour classes also run very good classes with no wasted time. So I guess part of my thinking when I started this thread was: unless you spend some time training with someone how do you know how valid their claim to black belt is? They say "I got my black belt in two years" and the instinct reaction is to think "well, it must be from a mcdojo/belt factory" but that person might have actually trained 3-4 times a week at a school with quality 2 hour classes. I wonder if many people get a black belt in 4 years and they don't get questioned about it because 4 years seems like the right amount of time, but for all we know they took chunks of time off, only went to 1-2 classes a week, the classes were only 45 minutes etc. etc.

 

[dancingalone]

Seriously? Some dojang only train for 45 minute classes? That's CRAZY!

We train 2 hours on a Tuesday and 1.5 hours on a Thursday (it used to be 2 hours, but we had to trim back the hours for finance reasons). The children train for 1 hour on a Tuesday.

I can't imagine training for 45 minutes, by the time you've warmed up and cooled down, you must have time for a few poomsae!

Wow, honestly shocked!

As mentioned above, some people can make it work.

I can recall when these seemed to get their start back in the nineties. The 45 minute class was originally created out of those martial arts business clinics/success programs. It's a way of squeezing in an additional class if you have limited space, so 3 45 minute classes instead of 2 1 hour classes. The idea was also to limit the class time so the kids would remain attentive.

 

[puunui]

I think it is more akin to a law of diminishing returns. You can load up on quantity in a shoter calender time period, but the body will only advance so quickly, and the mind will only retain so much.

I disagree with that. I think that a reasonably talented individual can learn much in a relatively short period of time frame, that the body and mind adapts to the situation presented. Desire and motivation is the key though. For example, I had one student who had some minimal aikido and Shotokan karate experience when he joined my school. When he originally came to me, he said his goal was to be a combination of van damme and steven seagal. I told him to forget about all that because he was going to be a national champion/national team member, in record time. He medaled at Nationals seventeen months later in the senior men's black belt division, fought at team trials and placed second there, the next year he took gold at nationals and again second at team trials, and the next year made team, which I believe was in record time.

 

[puunui]

Forgot to mention that same student medaled and/or won gold at US Open, made the Collegiate National Team and won silver at World University Championships before making the senior National Team in less than four years total training.