Ethics of Removing a BB from thier Family Tree

[Zoran]

I've heard ethical arguments about removing someone from their family tree.

You have a falling out, happens all the time, with one of your black belts. You then remove them from your black belt tree.

Is this fair? It it even ethical??

I look at it this way. Kenpo is a school. When you get your black belt, it's like getting a diploma from an academic school. Lets say that you recieve your BS from a university. Then a few years down the road, the head of the school decides he doesn't want the school associated with you. They then remove you from the list of graduates.

My take is that I completely disagree with removing someone for what they earned. In our system, we had a falling out with three black belts. Complete loss of contact and a lot of negative feelings towards those black belts exist to this day. But, we still list them in our BB tree.

Please do not go to the pointing fingers discussion. Such as what GM Tracy did. Trust me, he is not the only one. I've heard of EPAK instructor's doing the same, as well as other systems.

 

[dsp921]

Happens all the time. Doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. Sure, you can take them off the tree, take back the certificate, take back the belt. You can't take back the skills and the knowledge and that's what really matters. Once someone earns their rank it's theirs. Taking them off the tree doesn't and cannot undo what's done.
Fair or ethical? Who knows, probably not. But I for one don't do this so I have my name on a list or have a certificate to hang on the wall. The belt is cool, though :rofl:

 

[Doc]

interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.

Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?

 

[mj-hi-yah]

interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.

Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?

No, I think that's called crazy...:hammer: :anic: :tantrum: You check him in to the nearest clinic.

 

[BallistikMike]

or...



* Next to the name of the person with a disclaimer

For example

Joe Black Belt *



* No longer associated with instructor or school or association

If you as a student are going to rewrite your history or cut ties with your instructor, your instructor has every right to explain why at the very least use an * by your name on his lineage line.

 

[Doc]

or...



* Next to the name of the person with a disclaimer

For example

Joe Black Belt *



* No longer associated with instructor or school or association

If you as a student are going to rewrite your history or cut ties with your instructor, your instructor has every right to explain why at the very least use an * by your name on his lineage line.

That is what I chose to do. He removed himself from my lineage, however I was his teacher and promoted him. Weird.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

That is what I chose to do. He removed himself from my lineage, however I was his teacher and promoted him. Weird.

Did you ever have the opportunity to ask him why?

 

[Doc]

No, I think that's called crazy...:hammer: :anic: :tantrum: You check him in to the nearest clinic.

I agree. What is - is. Move on from there. Truth is I believe he has some significant emotional problems. Or as my daughter used to say when she was a baby, "He got issues."

 

[mj-hi-yah]

I agree. What is - is. Move on from there. Thruth is I believe he has some significant emotional problems. Or as my daughter used to say when she was a baby, "He got issues."

LOL yes I agree it's likely he is not well, or as my daughter would say, "You've got serious issues pal!"

 

[Doc]

LOL yes I agree it's likely he is not well, or as my daughter would say, "You've got serious issues pal!"

He hasn't had a decent conversation with me in over a decade. Ed Parker speculated with me about possible reasons, and they were all very petty and envy oriented. Nevertheless he persists and insists he was never my student, in spite of Ed Parker Sr.'s Family Tree entry. He has joined and quit several organizations siting "issues" with all of them. Emotional problems still seem to be the most reasonable when all things are considered in there entirety. Unfortunately it really is his loss. Go Figure.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

He hasn't had a decent conversation with me in over a decade. Ed Parker speculated with me about possible reasons, and they were all very petty and envy oriented. Nevertheless he persists and insists he was never my student, in spite of Ed Parker Sr.'s Family Tree entry. He has joined and quit several organizations siting "issues" with all of them. Emotional problems still seem to be the most reasonable when all things are considered in there entirety. Unfortunately it really is his loss. Go Figure.

A child can grow up and decide to publicly disown a parent or vise versa, but that will not erase the fact that there is a biological connection between them. It is similar here I think. If the training was completed and a belt awarded that fact can not be changed, but if for reasons of dishonor or in your case envy a person chooses to break ties, than I agree an * with an explanation is appropriate. If a student disowns a teacher as in this case, it is doubtful that they will ever claim lineage because it was the student's choice, but the interesting question to me here is - in the case of a teacher disowning a student, can the student rightfully still claim lineage, say as a school owner? Did Mr. Parker ever take back the patches and certificates of any of his black belts?

 

[Doc]

A child can grow up and decide to publicly disown a parent or vise versa, but that will not erase the fact that there is a biological connection between them. It is similar here I think. If the training was completed and a belt awarded that fact can not be changed, but if for reasons of dishonor or in your case envy a person chooses to break ties, than I agree an * with an explanation is appropriate. If a student disowns a teacher as in this case, it is doubtful that they will ever claim lineage because it was the student's choice, but the interesting question to me here is - in the case of a teacher disowning a student, can the student rightfully still claim lineage, say as a school owner? Did Mr. Parker ever take back the patches and certificates of any of his black belts?

No. Once awarded it became the property of the student. Parker placed people on his Familty Tree that privately he wished he didn't have to. But he also felt truth is truth and always gave credit where credit was due, even if it he didn't want to.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

No. Once awarded it became the property of the student. Parker placed people on his Familty Tree that privately he wished he didn't have to. But he also felt truth is truth and always gave credit where credit was due, even if it he didn't want to.

Interesting, and the ethical thing to do I think. :asian: Thanks for sharing the insight Doc.

 

[47MartialMan]

I've heard ethical arguments about removing someone from their family tree.

You have a falling out, happens all the time, with one of your black belts. You then remove them from your black belt tree.

Is this fair? It it even ethical??


My take is that I completely disagree with removing someone for what they earned. In our system, we had a falling out with three black belts. Complete loss of contact and a lot of negative feelings towards those black belts exist to this day. But, we still list them in our BB tree.

Please do not go to the pointing fingers discussion. Such as what GM Tracy did. Trust me, he is not the only one. I've heard of EPAK instructor's doing the same, as well as other systems.

This happens because the student either looses respect or loyalty to the teacher. It not only happens in martial arts, or other teacher to student, but also of parents to offspring.

 

[Zoran]

interesting perspective, but let's turn it around. What about when a student no longer "claims" you as his instructor? This happened to me with one of my black belts when, for unknown reasons of his own, insists he's first generation. This in spite of every IKKA Diploma he has up until the passing of Ed Parker Sr. has my signature on the "instructor" line.

Do you now remove him from your tree, because of his claims?

No I would not. He received most of his training under you.

Why play his game, play by your rules. Sort of our philosophy in self defense too.

P.S.
Sorry too hear this happened to you. I know how painful it is. I remember the pain my instructor went through with his. Also, our case was a little different. Those black belts did not leave so much as booted out. I won't go into details as it is a private matter, but it hurt many people no matter what the cause. Anyways, a long time ago and both parties have moved on and are thriving seperately now.

 

[kenposikh]

Just putting in my two cents worth. I believe that honour and respect are tantamount in this situation.

If the student denounces the instructor then he/she has no respect for them however I don't believe they should be removed from the family tree, look at it from the point of view of a real family you can't choose or drop family members can you so once you get onto a family tree you are there forever. It would be honourable for the instructor to leave them there and for the student to have to keep facing questions like well why are you on their tree.

Who really cares what the student says he can denounce all he likes but no instructor would put someone on their tree if they weren't legitimate Would they?

So removing people from a family tree is also imo also wrong they got there and should stay there.

 

[hammer]

Just my thoughts,

It’s unfortunate that we can’t change the past; there is no "back to the future”. So what was was!!

Whether you chose to acknowlegde the past, is another issue. Human relationships and emotions are often fickle at best, primarily based on perception of the Individuals concerned.

Although what I feel is most important is whether you have the knowledge and skills, you can have all the belts, certificates, titles, and claims to linage you want, but it comes down to whether you know the material or you don’t its simple,


And if you know your ART, Your talents will surface either way

Like I said just my thoughts

Cheers

 

[MJS]

I'm sure this happens all the time due to one reason or another. Yes, your name can be removed, your affiliation with the org. will end, but in the end, you will still be a BB.

One option, as was already mentioned, is to put an * by the persons name. The name is still on the tree, but its made clear that said person is no longer affiliated with the org.

Mike

 

[Pale Rider]

Something very similiar has happened to me. My previous instructor says that he wants nothing to do with me anymore, and has taken my name off of his roster, but yet if you go to his website and download the ".doc" file that he has with the membership roster on it you will find my name on there, but saying that I am no longer in the association. He has "demanded" that any certificates that I got from him be taken down off of any website(s) that I had them on.

I agreed to the terms of removal of either one of our names from the other's website. (He take my name off and I take his off), but what eludes me is that he still goes to every forum that he can frequent and bash me. I have since then joined a different school with a different Master instructor and we get along great.

Since the previous instructor has continued to bash me regardless of what is said to him about anything - do you think that I should put my certificates that I earned back on my website? Since regardless he will do and say what he wants anyway...

Thanks for the advice

 

[KenpoDave]

Listing someone on your family tree can imply (or at least lead people to infer) that they are associated with your organization and operating under the bylaws, with your approval.

If I promote someone, and I have my own organization with bylaws as to how things should be done, and that person breaks those rules, how should that be handled? Or, what if the person in question is involved in something illegal/immoral in regards to teaching, and he has the name of my organization all over his school? I can't take away their skill or knowledge, but I should have the right to remove them from my organization.

Loyalty is paramount, and it is a two way street.