Empty Your Cup

Flying Crane

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That is still suggesting that whatever you have already learned is useless. IMO a good instructor will take whatever you have already learned, help you apply what is similar from your previous style, and empty out that which is not useless. Not tell you to ignore all that you have already learned and completely restart anew.
No, it isn't. It is simply recognizing that some things are designed to be done differently, and you need to learn the new thing for its own merits, as it is meant to be done. Once you understand the new thing well then you can evaluate how similar it might be to what you already knew. But as you are learning it, you are not in a position to make that judgment yet.

As an ex-kenpo guy, I can tell you that what I do now is structured and designed in a way that is fundamentally different from the Kenpo that I learned. If I had simply turned it into Kenpo, did the new method the same way as I was doing Kenpo, it would have been worthless. It is tremendously valuable, but only if done the way it is meant to be done.

Later, once my understanding had grown, I decided that for me, the new method was better, and made more sense to me. So I did switch and quit kenpo, among others, in favor of the one. But that evaluation came later.
 

Flatfish

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I think I like @Bill Mattocks answer best. Be receptive to new things that are being taught but there's no need to throw out what you have learned before outright. Unless after careful evaluation you think you should.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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No, it isn't. It is simply recognizing that some things are designed to be done differently, and you need to learn the new thing for its own merits, as it is meant to be done. Once you understand the new thing well then you can evaluate how similar it might be to what you already knew. But as you are learning it, you are not in a position to make that judgment yet.

As an ex-kenpo guy, I can tell you that what I do now is structured and designed in a way that is fundamentally different from the Kenpo that I learned. If I had simply turned it into Kenpo, did the new method the same way as I was doing Kenpo, it would have been worthless. It is tremendously valuable, but only if done the way it is meant to be done.

Later, once my understanding had grown, I decided that for me, the new method was better, and made more sense to me. So I did switch and quit kenpo, among others, in favor of the one. But that evaluation came later.

I am not stating that I should recognize what is useful, I am saying that my Instructor should be able to see what I am capable of, and in what ways that could help them teaching me the new style. I do not expect to be able to automatically know that information myself. Sorry if I was unclear about that.
 

Flying Crane

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I am not stating that I should recognize what is useful, I am saying that my Instructor should be able to see what I am capable of, and in what ways that could help them teaching me the new style. I do not expect to be able to automatically know that information myself. Sorry if I was unclear about that.
Sure, I understand. My point is really that there can be big differences between one system and another, to the point where experience with one system could actually get in the way of learning another. That depends on which two systems are in the mix, but it definitely can happen. That's why I keep saying, learn a new system for its own merits, don't force it to be like something you already know. And to do that, there is an emptying of the cup that needs to happen, for that learning process.
 

Tez3

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Of course, you can always get a bigger cup, a pint sized tea mug perhaps, and fill it with even more knowledge. :)

Tea and biccies, an irresistible combination (especially custard creams and jammie dodgers!) ends all arguments.
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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Sure, I understand. My point is really that there can be big differences between one system and another, to the point where experience with one system could actually get in the way of learning another. That depends on which two systems are in the mix, but it definitely can happen. That's why I keep saying, learn a new system for its own merits, don't force it to be like something you already know. And to do that, there is an emptying of the cup that needs to happen, for that learning process.
That is true, some arts are actually detrimental to that. My solution to that, though, is to learn arts that should either help, or are unrelated enough that one will not get in the way of the other. If not, I would agree the only solution is to empty your cup, but that is nearly impossible since that requires you to get rid of your muscle memory as well, so that you dont get in your own way.
 

Flying Crane

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That is true, some arts are actually detrimental to that. My solution to that, though, is to learn arts that should either help, or are unrelated enough that one will not get in the way of the other. If not, I would agree the only solution is to empty your cup, but that is nearly impossible since that requires you to get rid of your muscle memory as well, so that you dont get in your own way.
It can get complicated, yes. It depends on habits you have developed and how those may or may not mesh with a new method, and whether you can suppress them during the learning process. It's not always possible. For me, I'm glad I was able to, it lead me to a much better place for myself.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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That's lucky for you. I attempted it at one point, and it did not work out. Ended up having to give up on the new art after nearly a year, with nothing much to show for it, except finding myself worse at my main art.
 

Flying Crane

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That's lucky for you. I attempted it at one point, and it did not work out. Ended up having to give up on the new art after nearly a year, with nothing much to show for it, except finding myself worse at my main art.
That is an enlightening experience to have. Frustrating, sure. But I'm sure the experience taught you far more than if it had all gone smoothly. There is a perspective there that you cannot get any other way.

I see some people try to broaden their arsenal by adopting things from other styles, like a famous kata or form, or whatever. Sometimes that can work effectively, but often it just leads to a mishmash collection of stuff that does not gel or work well together because the different parts are at odds with each other in how they function. There is no continuity tying it all together. People get so focused on wanting to add stuff that they never stop to consider that maybe there are good reasons to NOT add certain things.

Some things that work very well within a certain framework may not work at all if taken out of that framework, divorced from the foundation upon which it was built.
 

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Depends. Sometimes I just pour a little off of the top to make some room......
 
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PhotonGuy

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I always thought it was just something cool to say. I prefer, "Shut your yap, for once in your life, and listen!" :)

Well that's what you do when you start taking lessons. Whenever you start something new you're supposed to just listen and follow instructions, that's how you learn.
 
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PhotonGuy

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Think of your belt level as your ability to listen. By the time you reach black belt, you should have the courtesy, and the ability, to listen to anyone. If you instantly dismiss, you have been over promoted.

That would depend on how you define black belt. Every dojo has its own requirements and its own set of standards, so the definition of black belt varies from dojo to dojo, but regardless of where you get a black belt there is always more to learn. In fact, black belt is just the beginning. The more you know the more you realize what you have yet to learn.

As for listening to other people I agree with that, and while you shouldn't instantly dismiss most stuff you hear, you also shouldn't immediately accept everything you hear as fact. Its important to keep an open mind and whether or not you accept what you hear, there is much in between accepting and not accepting. You could take into consideration that something might be true but not that it necessarily is true, it just might be.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I'm not sure it really is about empty. I think it's more about flexible:

a) having the humility to realise that the things you suspect are likely true may not be

b) always being able to entertain the idea of something without committing to it or trashing it, then after consideration either disposing of it or assimilating into your cup

c) acknowledging that you will never know the truth, you will only become more confident of what is likely true

So I really can reach 90 and say I still don't know what's right. I'll have a better idea than when I was 18, but I'll never be sure.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Well yes and in particular with regards to a) I believe emptying your cup means stop thinking you know more than you do. All too often, especially people with just a little bit of knowledge and experience, they think they know more than they do, they overestimate themselves in that regard. Emptying your cup means to forget all that you supposedly know, at least for the time being, and start again at the beginning. That way you can learn more.
 
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PhotonGuy

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I often use the same term. What I believe is meant by the phrase is to adjust your attitude when receiving instruction so that you are a receptive and willing learner.

When one thinks that they 'already know' how to perform a given technique, they may tend not to listen well to any additional instruction on the topic. When asked to practice the technique, they may practice it they way they believe they 'already know' it, rather than the way the instructor wishes it to be done.

It refers to ego, basically.

We have a sign on the door that says "Leave your shoes and your attitude at the door."

Another way to look at it is that if your 'cup is full' metaphorically, no instructor can add anything to your knowledge. To empty your cup is to be receptive and willing to absorb more learning.

It is something I have to remind myself of constantly. I even say it to myself as I step out onto the floor. Deep breath, settle, tell myself, "Empty your cup, student."

That is basically the gist of what I've been saying. People who think they know it all, they really need to empty their cup. And in regards to performing techniques, there is always more you can learn and I speak from my own experience. After training at my main dojo for about fifteen years, I started cross training at this other dojo. At the new dojo I started from the very beginning and I was taught a method for throwing the reverse punch that was different than how it is done at my main dojo. Some of the aspects of how the reverse punch is thrown at the new dojo work better for me than how it is done at my main dojo and as such I've incorporated it into my training and I sometimes use it as its improved my technique. The legendary Gichin Funakoshi after some 50 or so years of training in Shotokan Karate found a method of throwing the reverse punch that was a little bit better for him.

So people who think they know it all, training in the martial arts, especially when you apply the idea of emptying your cup, can be a good cure for that.
 

Steve

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Think of your belt level as your ability to listen. By the time you reach black belt, you should have the courtesy, and the ability, to listen to anyone. If you instantly dismiss, you have been over promoted.
While I don't know of any styles that require high emotional intelligence and strong active listening skills for black belts, it's not a bad idea. I think you'd see far fewer black belts that way. :)
 

Touch Of Death

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While I don't know of any styles that require high emotional intelligence and strong active listening skills for black belts, it's not a bad idea. I think you'd see far fewer black belts that way. :)
Well, I wouldn't say it was about intelligence itself, I am talking about intelligent listening habits, which would naturally boost your intelligence.
 

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