Effectiveness of Multiple Kicks

[marques]

In popular movies and video games, I've sometimes seen a person kick their target multiple times without putting their kicking foot back on the ground. I have a hard time believing that this could be effective because it seems like there's hardly any space to create power or momentum for the kick. Am I wrong? With enough training could this be effective?

Well, once I sparred with a TKD guy who was always with a leg up ready for side kick, or other. Yes, it was effective. I had a hard time figuring out who I could reach him. And, generally speaking, TKD guys do it often in competition. So it works, in some contexts.

From my side, I use two kicks combos, being the first only a feint / touch kick (or turning a real kick in the last moment if no defence). For me is dificult more than one power kick, but that one can be effective (such as the 'question mark kick' mentioned here).

 

[Buka]

Well, I don't know that much about titles of moves in TKD, but I think we used to consider a roundhouse a kick from the back foot. That was also almost always the leg that had about 70% of our weight. You could see it coming but if it connected with anything, if carried a lot of power.

But this is a little different than what people are talking about, just like the one above at post #14, and about the 14 minute mark in post #10. The setup is to kick low towards the ankle of low shin. You don't even have to connect. It would normally be expected that the kicker, when he pulls the leg back after the miss, is going to step all the way back to miss a quick counter attack. Instead, the kick comes to the head/face with pretty good power. Even if there is no knockout, it will rattle the opponent. Of course, you do need good balance at all times. I'm not sure that is always stressed these days. We were always taught to be perfectly balanced at all times, knowing that might shorten some kicks or punches. But it gave more power.

Jhoon Goo Rhee, in the mid-sixties, taught that kick. He had two signature kicks, one of which he demonstrated publicly. He would do a side kick to the face. It had so much power that his gi would strike his leg with enough force to make a loud crack. He would move his foot back a bit and kick again, with the same slap, and do that one more time before he returned to having both feet on the floor. Trust me, it was impressive and something the rest of us practiced. I don't recall anyone getting a slap on the first kick, much less a second or third kick, if we could keep our balance for a second or third, it still wouldn't have much power except for the first kick. So yes, it can be done. But not by many.

I don't know or remember names of TKD moves either, but I don't know, nor remember, a whole lot of stuff.

That particular question mark kick - we call it "fake front, roundhouse". Just something we've always used for a term. The key in that particular kick is the pivot of the base foot on the change (from front to round). We never threw it to get a reaction on that first fake kick to the front, it's pretty much too quick for a reaction (other than maybe a flinch) We threw it just to get his attention/eyes/focus/whatever on the low front angle - he's pretty much hit in the face from there. But it's the type of kick, when used in sparring, you usually never get hit with it again after the first couple. It's just one of those kicks you can see coming.

As for that snap on a sidekick, that's why I always wore a heavyweight gi. Oh, sure, I'll say because they last longer, and they do, but I really like the snap. Always have, always will.

 

[Swagmaster2993]

This, people, is a great question. MY theory, is that they don't put ALL their power behind one kick, they spread it out equally.

 

[Buka]

You want to learn to use multiple kicks off the lead leg in a functional way? Watch this. Old school. When I was in school back in the 70's, this guy was a legend. Still is:

It's impossible to fully appreciate Bill Wallace's kicks until they hit you. They are completely and utterly unique compared to other kickers. To me, the hardest thing was dealing with his apparent mastery of distance (even more so than his angles). His knowledge of Kinesiology (Master's degree) doesn't just help his kicking, he knows how you can move by the way you are standing as well as anyone I've ever seen.

Much can be learned from Bill Wallace, about many things. If only we could learn to kick like him.

Aa an aside - I've even been kicked by his right leg. AND a spin kick. (step over spinning hook, with the left) (Both just messing around.)
Man, can he kick.

 

[oftheherd1]

I don't know or remember names of TKD moves either, but I don't know, nor remember, a whole lot of stuff.

That particular question mark kick - we call it "fake front, roundhouse". Just something we've always used for a term. The key in that particular kick is the pivot of the base foot on the change (from front to round). We never threw it to get a reaction on that first fake kick to the front, it's pretty much too quick for a reaction (other than maybe a flinch) We threw it just to get his attention/eyes/focus/whatever on the low front angle - he's pretty much hit in the face from there. But it's the type of kick, when used in sparring, you usually never get hit with it again after the first couple. It's just one of those kicks you can see coming.

As for that snap on a sidekick, that's why I always wore a heavyweight gi. Oh, sure, I'll say because they last longer, and they do, but I really like the snap. Always have, always will.

Yep, that low kick is mostly a distractor the way I learned to use it. The opponent will often walk into the real kick, thinking you will step back.

I once caught a 4th dan (who had his own school under my GM) with that kick. You should have seen the look on his face! Surprise and not happy. I paid for it about 2 months later when he asked if I wanted to spar with him after a class when nobody else was present. He kicked me with a low cross over kick, catching me on the bottom part of my thigh with the heel of his foot. What control he had along with his mastery of Hapkido. We had to quit as I couldn't put full weight on that leg for a little over a week. I really think he cracked the bone. The look on his face told it all. Not so much a ha-ha, as remember your manners, don't try to embarrass a 4th dan again.

Crazy thing is, I don't have any idea why I used that kick then. I had seen him spar and had even sparred with him before. I knew better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's impossible to fully appreciate Bill Wallace's kicks until they hit you. They are completely and utterly unique compared to other kickers. To me, the hardest thing was dealing with his apparent mastery of distance (even more so than his angles). His knowledge of Kinesiology (Master's degree) doesn't just help his kicking, he knows how you can move by the way you are standing as well as anyone I've ever seen.

Much can be learned from Bill Wallace, about many things. If only we could learn to kick like him.

Aa an aside - I've even been kicked by his right leg. AND a spin kick. (step over spinning hook, with the left) (Both just messing around.)
Man, can he kick.

Being kicked by Wallace's right foot is quite a claim, Buka. Not many had that..um, privilege? I heard a story that he once fought a bout with his right foot (maybe in an exhibition), just to show he could. I don't know if that ever actually happened, but I imagine it could have.

 

[jobo]

This, people, is a great question. MY theory, is that they don't put ALL their power behind one kick, they spread it out equally.

well sort of, if you take a kick and remove the body momentum aspect, you are left with the lower leg snap, to produce power. This is controlled by the quad muscle which is a very powerful muscle group capable of producing considerable energy. It can,after all produce enough to lift 400lbs or more od weight between to two legs in a squat .
a normal kick doesn't utilise this power as it relies on,sling shotting the lower leg out,at speed rather than deploying the muscle for maximal power.

so having thrown your leg up using body momentum with the first kick, the quad muscle has hardly been worked at all, and so should be able to develop near full power with the,second snap kick.
as this is not the ussual kicking mechanism, you need to go back and learn the motor skill is correctly activate the quads to develop power with the second kick

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yep, that low kick is mostly a distractor the way I learned to use it. The opponent will often walk into the real kick, thinking you will step back.

I once caught a 4th dan (who had his own school under my GM) with that kick. You should have seen the look on his face! Surprise and not happy. I paid for it about 2 months later when he asked if I wanted to spar with him after a class when nobody else was present. He kicked me with a low cross over kick, catching me on the bottom part of my thigh with the heel of his foot. What control he had along with his mastery of Hapkido. We had to quit as I couldn't put full weight on that leg for a little over a week. I really think he cracked the bone. The look on his face told it all. Not so much a ha-ha, as remember your manners, don't try to embarrass a 4th dan again.

Crazy thing is, I don't have any idea why I used that kick then. I had seen him spar and had even sparred with him before. I knew better.

That guy sounds like a dick. He held onto the resentment that you kicked him in a sparring match for two months, and tried to crack your bone when no one was around as a punishment?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Yep, that low kick is mostly a distractor the way I learned to use it. The opponent will often walk into the real kick, thinking you will step back.

I once caught a 4th dan (who had his own school under my GM) with that kick. You should have seen the look on his face! Surprise and not happy. I paid for it about 2 months later when he asked if I wanted to spar with him after a class when nobody else was present. He kicked me with a low cross over kick, catching me on the bottom part of my thigh with the heel of his foot. What control he had along with his mastery of Hapkido. We had to quit as I couldn't put full weight on that leg for a little over a week. I really think he cracked the bone. The look on his face told it all. Not so much a ha-ha, as remember your manners, don't try to embarrass a 4th dan again.

Crazy thing is, I don't have any idea why I used that kick then. I had seen him spar and had even sparred with him before. I knew better.

Also, how is kicking someone in a sparring match, where the goal is to try and hit each other, not minding your manners?

 

[Buka]

Being kicked by Wallace's right foot is quite a claim, Buka. Not many had that..um, privilege? I heard a story that he once fought a bout with his right foot (maybe in an exhibition), just to show he could. I don't know if that ever actually happened, but I imagine it could have.

If it happened, it would have had to have been an exhibition. He was way too smart a fighter for it to have been anything else.

 

[WaterGal]

That guy sounds like a dick. He held onto the resentment that you kicked him in a sparring match for two months, and tried to crack your bone when no one was around as a punishment?

Yeah, agreed. If your partner follows the rules and isn't reckless/negligent, being vengeful because they kicked you in sparring is dickish and stupid and bad sportsmanship. A black belt isn't a magic shield, sometimes you're going to get hit. The proper response is to enjoy the challenge and keep working hard.

 

[Buka]

Yep, that low kick is mostly a distractor the way I learned to use it. The opponent will often walk into the real kick, thinking you will step back.

I once caught a 4th dan (who had his own school under my GM) with that kick. You should have seen the look on his face! Surprise and not happy. I paid for it about 2 months later when he asked if I wanted to spar with him after a class when nobody else was present. He kicked me with a low cross over kick, catching me on the bottom part of my thigh with the heel of his foot. What control he had along with his mastery of Hapkido. We had to quit as I couldn't put full weight on that leg for a little over a week. I really think he cracked the bone. The look on his face told it all. Not so much a ha-ha, as remember your manners, don't try to embarrass a 4th dan again.

Crazy thing is, I don't have any idea why I used that kick then. I had seen him spar and had even sparred with him before. I knew better.

Curious....what rank were you at the time?

 

[oftheherd1]

That guy sounds like a dick. He held onto the resentment that you kicked him in a sparring match for two months, and tried to crack your bone when no one was around as a punishment?

He was a bit proud of himself, but actually he was a pretty good guy. And a very good Hapkido teacher. I know that sounds odd, but you had to know him I guess.

 

[JP3]

I will say I've never done it sparring. Just doesn't seem to be time when I'm constantly changing distance and angle. I have thrown a mawashigeri and used it to spin into a a ushirogeri. It seems that once you 'miss' with a roundhouse kick, the opponent doesn't generally expect you to plant the leg that threw the kick, pivot, and immediately throw a hard back kick. Only works once in a sparring match, and I doubt very seriously that I'd try it in self-defense.

You are describing the combo I used most often in the ring, actually. Thai roundhouse, or TKD roundhouse... fire kick, put down kicking foot in appropriate spot, spin, reverse-sidekick or back kick, or spinning heel kick. The body torque fits the process. Very common TKD combo.

But, I have never seen anyone even try that combo in a street fight. There's maybe youtube of it somewhere, I wonder how it comes off?

 

[oftheherd1]

Curious....what rank were you at the time?

I don't recall now. That was in the mid-80s. But I think I must have been a red belt at that time.

I am surprised to have kicked up such a fire storm. I think things are a little different in Korea. At least then. I didn't feel so wronged, in fact it wasn't until later that I figured it all out and figured I understood the look on his face. I wouldn't say he hated me at all, just was providing a different kind of instruction.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't recall now. That was in the mid-80s. But I think I must have been a red belt at that time.

I am surprised to have kicked up such a fire storm. I think things are a little different in Korea. At least then. I didn't feel so wronged, in fact it wasn't until later that I figured it all out and figured I understood the look on his face. I wouldn't say he hated me at all, just was providing a different kind of instruction.

More than anything, for me at least, I enter a sparring match expecting to get hit. I'm not going to punish someone for hitting me, when the goal of the match (from their perspective) is to hit me.

 

[oftheherd1]

More than anything, for me at least, I enter a sparring match expecting to get hit. I'm not going to punish someone for hitting me, when the goal of the match (from their perspective) is to hit me.

I understand, but you have to remember this was Hapkido. We really didn't spar much, and when we did, it had to be more TKD style. Our art doesn't do sparring well. Things break or pop out of sockets too easily. And I need to go back and look at my post. If I said I actually kicked him I made a mistake. I got close, but pulled the kick before 'breaking' a nose or orbit.

 

[KangTsai]

It works sometimes. It's exhausting as hell however, so I wouldn't try it.

 

[EMT]

It works as long as you maintain a high level of fitness Muay Thai combos