Eclectic styles vs. traditional styles, help with paper

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Ridgeback111

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Hello all,
First post here, I signed up so that I can get some help from other martial artists on my research paper for my university.
If you could help me by providing links to statistics, or articles relating to eclectic(modern/mixed) arts as compared to traditional arts, I would appreciate that quite a bit. Basically the paper is comparing the old vs new, or the mixed art vs. the pure art. I've trained in both disciplnes, and have my own opinions. I would love to hear from other martial artists what thier opinions are, so that I can have a bit more fodder to my research paper. It only has to be 5 pages....

Here is my thesis statement for the paper:
Thousands, if not millions of people train in the martial arts specifically for the purposes of self-defense, sport or no-holds-barred(NHB) competition. My paper will clear the mystery as to why certain eclectic martial arts have an advantage over pure art forms; with regard to self-defense and NHB. Statistical analysis of NHB fights, and historical analysis of modern eclectic styles will show pure art forms often fail in practical real world situations. I will discuss pure styles, eclectic styles, NHB, and self-defense and how they inter-relate in practical situations.


thank you in advance for any help.
Ridgeback
 

James Kovacich

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Originally posted by Ridgeback111
Hello all,
First post here, I signed up so that I can get some help from other martial artists on my research paper for my university.
If you could help me by providing links to statistics, or articles relating to eclectic(modern/mixed) arts as compared to traditional arts, I would appreciate that quite a bit. Basically the paper is comparing the old vs new, or the mixed art vs. the pure art. I've trained in both disciplnes, and have my own opinions. I would love to hear from other martial artists what thier opinions are, so that I can have a bit more fodder to my research paper. It only has to be 5 pages....

Here is my thesis statement for the paper:
Thousands, if not millions of people train in the martial arts specifically for the purposes of self-defense, sport or no-holds-barred(NHB) competition. My paper will clear the mystery as to why certain eclectic martial arts have an advantage over pure art forms; with regard to self-defense and NHB. Statistical analysis of NHB fights, and historical analysis of modern eclectic styles will show pure art forms often fail in practical real world situations. I will discuss pure styles, eclectic styles, NHB, and self-defense and how they inter-relate in practical situations.


thank you in advance for any help.
Ridgeback

I would say that eclectic systems follow a concept of "use what is usefull, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own."

They also cut down the lenth of time it takes to actually become an acclamated fighter.
 
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Mormegil

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Try looking up back issues of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

As far as statistics. That's difficult. Try looking up UFC or other MMA fight records, and look at the styles (traditional or otherwise) of the fighters. Not just the champions, but all the fights.
 

Aegis

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I imagine that this topic is going to kick up a whirlwind of argument...

As to my own input, I'll just say this: it depends entirely on which martial arts you decide to compare.
 

James Kovacich

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Originally posted by Mormegil
Try looking up back issues of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

As far as statistics. That's difficult. Try looking up UFC or other MMA fight records, and look at the styles (traditional or otherwise) of the fighters. Not just the champions, but all the fights.

And the fighters training historys. And exactly who trained them to be a MMA fighter.
 

Zepp

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Can't say I agree with your thesis. I don't know if your professor cares about whether or not you problematize your approach, but for the sake of presenting both sides, I think maybe you should also look into situations in which so-called "traditional" martial arts have worked in real-life situations. There are plenty of them. You can look at what styles are used by various militaries, or even at some of the experiences of people on this site:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6280
(Sorry I'm too lazy to look for more than one thread.)

Just a suggestion. Like I said, I don't know what your professor is looking for.
 
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Ridgeback111

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I appreciate all your inputs. The paper is an opinion paper for English 101! lol It was the only long term(20 yrs)subject I knew!

The professor is not really worried about content, he's more interested in grammer and logical thought process.

Please if anyone has anymore data, opinions, or websites to visit please reply! thank you!

Ridgeback
 
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A.R.K.

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Bruce Lee in several of his books delves deeply into this exact subject. It was one of his motivations in the direction he took as a Martial Artist. This is exactly what his 'Game of Death' was meant to portray had it been finished. The uncut footage was excellent in content as well as diologue. Perhaps it would be worth a search on yahoo as to this and Bruce?

LEO sources might be usefull to look into as well. LEO's do not get 'traditional' training in Academies and in-service. They get 'elements' of traditional training that can be learned and applied quickly. No forms etc. Not saying that forms are bad, but with budget restrictions they are simply not even addressed. Even advanced courses cover a range of the 'arts' as to what is the most easily learned and most practical.

I would suggest also a search on Sir Peter Boatman of the UK. He was the Chief Inspector of the North Hamptonshire PD and head of training. Because of his Edged Weapons defense program which consisted of a single 16 hour course, officer related injuries in edged weapon assaults dropped from 84% to 17% in two years. The training was easily assimulated by the troops and easily applied. He was Knighted by the Queen of England for this program. Might be worth a search as well.

Good luck, hope it goes well. :)
 

James Kovacich

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Originally posted by Zepp
Can't say I agree with your thesis. I don't know if your professor cares about whether or not you problematize your approach, but for the sake of presenting both sides, I think maybe you should also look into situations in which so-called "traditional" martial arts have worked in real-life situations. There are plenty of them. You can look at what styles are used by various militaries, or even at some of the experiences of people on this site:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6280
(Sorry I'm too lazy to look for more than one thread.)

Just a suggestion. Like I said, I don't know what your professor is looking for.

That thread was not a good example to use. Nobody in there stated whether they used either "traditional or eclectic" self defense. I for one contributed to that thread and I can tell you now, I have never in a real fight situation used a chambered punch.
 

James Kovacich

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Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Bruce Lee in several of his books delves deeply into this exact subject. It was one of his motivations in the direction he took as a Martial Artist. This is exactly what his 'Game of Death' was meant to portray had it been finished. The uncut footage was excellent in content as well as diologue. Perhaps it would be worth a search on yahoo as to this and Bruce :)

Bruce coined the phrase "use what is usefull, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own." Which I can say works for me!
 
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chufeng

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Here is my thesis statement for the paper:

You're doing a THESIS for freshman comp/English 101 ???


Statistical analysis of NHB fights, and historical analysis of modern eclectic styles will show pure art forms often fail in practical real world situations.

...what kind of statistical analysis are you going to apply?
T-test, chi square, two-tailed????...and to WHAT data???
Is it ordinal or nominal data? How did you arrive at that?
What, exactly, is a historical analysis?
How will you answer the question of WHY traditional arts survived to this day?
What are your assumptions?
What are the weaknesses of your study?
What are the strengths?

First post here, I signed up so that I can get some help from other martial artists on my research paper for my university

What is your university's policy on collaboration on "original" works?
Is this your project, or OUR project?
HOW will you cite the sources on this webBoard within your paper?
How will you be able to validate the reliability of these sources?

Just some thoughts from someone who actually teaches in a Master's program...

Actually, it looks like you are trying to write a comparative paper...
You will easily find examples of wins by traditionalists and by eclectics if you peruse the archives of the martial arts rags back to the late 1960s...(YES, that means you have to do some homework!!!)

You will also see examples of traditionalists and eclectics getting their asses handed to them...

IF you are going to write a "thesis," try: The art matters less than the practitioner's desire to do his very best.

Bottom line, your teacher doesn't care what you write, but HOW you write...so focus on that for now...

Your topic is Fine...
But don't call something a thesis, when it isn't...

If you want more help with HOW to construct your paper, I will gladly offer advice...off-line...

Good luck,
...and good training,
:asian:
chufeng
 

James Kovacich

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Originally posted by chufeng

Actually, it looks like you are trying to write a comparative paper...
You will easily find examples of wins by traditionalists and by eclectics if you peruse the archives of the martial arts rags back to the late 1960s...(YES, that means you have to do some homework!!!)

You will also see examples of traditionalists and eclectics getting their asses handed to them...

IF you are going to write a "thesis," try: The art matters less than the practitioner's desire to do his very best.
:asian:
chufeng

I think you hit the nail on the head!!
 
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Ridgeback111

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The paper is a supported personal view. It's not a thesis! The professor just wanted a thesis statement to start us out correctly.

My goal in this (other then to pass the class) is to objectively write about this(touchy) topic without picking on any particular art. My personal theory being if one was to learn an art for self-defense would they pick the narrowly focused art or the wide spectrumed art?
In general common sense would say hey, pick the art that would cover your *** everywhere. Due to human nature we don't all think alike. Objective analysis of my experiences have shown a repeatable measurable advantage with those who have cross trained and integrated techniques, over those who have stuck with one art for ever. Reminds me the time I saw a series of Gracie's(pure jiujitsu, according to Rickson at the Pride demo) get thier asses handed to them by an eclectic guy aka. Sakuraba... There I go picking on someones art... sorry...

Also to answer ChuFeng's question if this is my project or ours... it's mine all mine! Originally all I asked for were websites and articles people may have bookmarked somewhere.

Opinions are appeciated too!
thanx guys for all the help!

Ridgeback
 
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sweeper

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as to stats, I have never seen any, all the "evidence" people quote is from personal experience or from freinds experiience (or if you read usenet RMA just BS).

as to sites you should look up, check out:

http://www.mma.tv/
That's a pritty good site dedicated to MMA in genneral, but their board covers all kinds of arts, alot of good info there and alot of knowledge about MMA, if you are looking for MMA stuff you can probably get more responces there than here.

http://www.realfighting.com/
The page is dedicated to "reality self deffence" They have some articles by some very experienced people, you can probably dig up some info off there or off links from there.

http://go.to/stickgrappler
Stickgrappler's site is an archive site there is a ton of data there concerning alot of diffrent sites that have been archived from various forums and usenet groups.

I must say though, you thesis is not objective

Statistical analysis of NHB fights, and historical analysis of modern eclectic styles will show pure art forms often fail in practical real world situations.

If you don't have information to back up the thesis yet than you aren't aproaching the subject in an objective fasion, you are searching for data to support your view..

I would also point out that self deffence is a much broader field of study than martial art. awareness and knowledge play much larger roles than kicking someone's ***. And as to MMA beating out traditional styles.. MMA fighters (if you are refering to the NHB sporting events) don't specificly train for dealing with multiple attackers, or weapons, both of wich are fairly common in an assault. (that info will be alot easyer for you to dig up than ratio of eclectic - pure art fighters that have deffended themselves).

Basicly if your paper is going to be on self deffence I would read up on self deffence and re-evaluate your position.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Ridgeback111
Hello all,
First post here, I signed up so that I can get some help from other martial artists on my research paper for my university.
If you could help me by providing links to statistics, or articles relating to eclectic(modern/mixed) arts as compared to traditional arts, I would appreciate that quite a bit. Basically the paper is comparing the old vs new, or the mixed art vs. the pure art. I've trained in both disciplnes, and have my own opinions. I would love to hear from other martial artists what thier opinions are, so that I can have a bit more fodder to my research paper. It only has to be 5 pages....

Here is my thesis statement for the paper:
Thousands, if not millions of people train in the martial arts specifically for the purposes of self-defense, sport or no-holds-barred(NHB) competition. My paper will clear the mystery as to why certain eclectic martial arts have an advantage over pure art forms; with regard to self-defense and NHB. Statistical analysis of NHB fights, and historical analysis of modern eclectic styles will show pure art forms often fail in practical real world situations. I will discuss pure styles, eclectic styles, NHB, and self-defense and how they inter-relate in practical situations.


thank you in advance for any help.
Ridgeback

Does anybody else think this sounds like a Troll.

I mean the guy has 3 posts, claims he wants help with a research paper and then says this:

Originally posted by Ridgeback111
My paper will clear the mystery as to why certain eclectic martial arts have an advantage over pure art forms; with regard to self-defense and NHB.
 

James Kovacich

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Who knows. I know you guys thought ZDW did something like that. So if you try connecting the dots. The dots do not lead to me.

I have my own thread "If you could add to you art" that I'm having fun with.
 
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rmcrobertson

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Here's the problem with the paper you project: it's far too general. It's a problem I've often seen in my writing and literature student's essays: you've bitten off too big a chunk off the world to discuss, and you're going to get caught up in generalities and cliches rather than a real analysis.

There's another problem too: you're apparently sure of what you're going to say before you've really done the research. How exactly do you know that the "modern," arts are superior to the "traditional?"

In the first place, what exactly do you mean by "traditional," arts? Many are very modern in origins--and what's worse for the binary opposition you've set up, there are no "pure," modern or "pure," traditional arts. I study American kenpo, for example--and the more I learn, the more traditional it looks in some ways. You might look at Derrida's, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences," since you're relying on a binary difference between two entities that, strictly speaking, can't be separated.

Last--your thesis isn't a thesis. To say that you're going to show, "how," something works isn't a statement of an argument, it's a statement about a structure in which you're goling to say something. Instead, tell the reader how you think it works, at the start, and then go on to prove it.

You'll be better off if you restrict the field you're going to discuss. Pick, say, specific practices of specific arts--like, say, blocking theory in Shotokan vs. blocking theory in kenpo. And give over with the "better," and "worse," jazz. Your college teacher should be telling you that such claims are dead ends--they just won't tell you much.

Uh, I probably said too much...but I've been teaching writing for awhile, and it's reflexive.
 

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