Dojang Etiquette: Students teaching students.

[Gerry Seymour]

I always liked students helping each other. I like that as both a student and a teacher.

What I see less of these days is teachers helping other teachers.

I agree on both counts. I've been trying to figure a way to help other instructor - both in the mainline of NGA and in my geographic area. I just can't seem to find many who are interested in that sort of mutual helping beyond their own association.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO there is a fear by instructors that their students may like the other guy better. Did a couple of things a while back. Got a group of non aligned instructors to participate. We would do a group class ta one instructors location taught by 2 visiting instructors from 2 different schools. The class would be split - Usually Colored belts and Black belts. Halfway they the visiting instructors would switch groups. Did it quarterly. got tired of organizing it after a year and asked another instructor to take over . No one volunteered so that ended. Over the years I have also invited local instructors who taught something they did to my class. This involved Aikido, Karate, pressure points, Ju Jitsu, padded assailant. One invited me to teach at their place. One of my friends does invite area schools for a combined workout and has various visiting instructors teach, but he is one of the exceptions. In the old days Han Cha Kyos people had open Sunday workouts for Black Belts. But that seems to be the exception.

 

[Gnarlie]

I think some of this comes from the manner in which the 'correction' is presented.

There's a world of difference between 'That's wrong, it should be like this', and 'Do you think chambering you knee higher might help'.

Student to student correction is an ongoing source of friction in many clubs but I wouldn't discourage it as it's character building for both the critic and the criticised, regardless of how it is presented.

Patience is a virtue.

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[Red Sun]

I wouldn't be able to bring myself to hold it against the low rank student.

I was doing pushups incorrectly for about 2 years before a random yellow belt, who also happened to be a personal trainer, informed me that my back wasn't straight. After that, i didn't get aches in my lower back and i could do about 10 more pushups at a time. Go figure.

As for punches/kicks, it depends on the correction.

I couldn't do sidekicks until another student of the same rank noticed that noone had shown me how to pivot my support foot. It was just getting spun by momentum, with no input from me, so i couldn't engage my hip and kick properly. My instructors never noticed the problem, and i didnt have any serious issues with speed, power, and the form *LOOKED* okay. I made excuses like 'im just bad at sidekicks', but no. Its just the first kick i learnt where you really have to get your hip all the way over to throw it properly :/

 

[WaterGal]

I think some of this comes from the manner in which the 'correction' is presented.

There's a world of difference between 'That's wrong, it should be like this', and 'Do you think chambering you knee higher might help'.

Student to student correction is an ongoing source of friction in many clubs but I wouldn't discourage it as it's character building for both the critic and the criticised, regardless of how it is presented.

Patience is a virtue.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Sometimes people (kids or adults) are kind of bullying or disruptive in how they correct other students, and I think that kind of approach should be discouraged. It's important for the school to be a supportive environment.

 

[Gnarlie]

Sometimes people (kids or adults) are kind of bullying or disruptive in how they correct other students, and I think that kind of approach should be discouraged. It's important for the school to be a supportive environment.

Agree. I would discourage bullying and disruption, too. However, when people complain about being corrected, or the way they are being corrected, I would encourage them to resolve the situation with the other person in a diplomatic and respectful way. To work on their 'Do'.

 

[Paul_D]

I think it is better to start helping students with their techniques before you become a Dan Grade. That way you can get your teaching mistakes out of the way before you reach Dan Grade and become an instructor proper.

 

[drop bear]

Our system is wierd as the technique is personal to the individual so you get hard and fast rules. But also get ideas you can incorporate.

The rules are designed as a teaching method rather than necessarily an end point.

Which is kind of cool.

 

[Tames D]

I think it is better to start helping students with their techniques before you become a Dan Grade. That way you can get your teaching mistakes out of the way before you reach Dan Grade and become an instructor proper.

This concerns me. The poor kid whose parents are paying for instruction from a Master Instructor, has to learn improper technique from a fellow student, so this "aspiring instructor" can get his mistakes out of the way.

 

[Paul_D]

This concerns me. The poor kid whose parents are paying for instruction from a Master Instructor, has to learn improper technique from a fellow student, so this "aspiring instructor" can get his mistakes out of the way.

"Teaching mistakes" not "teaching incorrect techniques". There is often no guidance on how to be an instructor, and so it has to be a case of trial and error in learning how to teach. I did not intend to suggest that meant that what you were teaching was wrong, only your methods of teaching it.

 

[drop bear]

This concerns me. The poor kid whose parents are paying for instruction from a Master Instructor, has to learn improper technique from a fellow student, so this "aspiring instructor" can get his mistakes out of the way.

If you wanted to learn the super secret from the head instructor you put the time in or you pay for the private lessons?

Otherwise you get who you get.

 

[Tames D]

If you wanted to learn the super secret from the head instructor you put the time in or you pay for the private lessons?

Otherwise you get who you get.

Or.... learn from a video. Cuz, if your gonna learn it wrong, at least you didn't throw a lot of money at it.

 

[Tames D]

"Teaching mistakes" not "teaching incorrect techniques". There is often no guidance on how to be an instructor, and so it has to be a case of trial and error in learning how to teach. I did not intend to suggest that meant that what you were teaching was wrong, only your methods of teaching it.

This concerns me even more.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This concerns me. The poor kid whose parents are paying for instruction from a Master Instructor, has to learn improper technique from a fellow student, so this "aspiring instructor" can get his mistakes out of the way.

You're assuming the student is an alternative to an instructor. This is almost never the case. They are a training partner giving feedback. The instructor is still there, probably working with another student at that moment.

 

[Buka]

There are always exceptions, but I'm guessing we all started teaching classes in the same way(s). The Boss said, "teach that class." Or we assisted him, or someone else, for a while, then, after some time, we did it on our own.

I'm not sure if there's any other way. Or if there should be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are always exceptions, but I'm guessing we all started teaching classes in the same way(s). The Boss said, "teach that class." Or we assisted him, or someone else, for a while, then, after some time, we did it on our own.

I'm not sure if there's any other way. Or if there should be.

In the association I came up in, there's an actual student teaching requirement as part of the requirements for shodan (first degree black belt). It starts with assisting (usually informally), then when a student is testing for brown belt (last belt before black) he submits a curriculum for a self-defense seminar, then must teach a year of classes under an instructor to be eligible for promotion.

I'm taking a similar approach, though with even more structure. I have a background in training trainers, and have put together the core of what will be a two-part workshop required to become an instructor. The first part will be fairly basic, and will be required before a student can act as an assistant instructor (basically "instructor-in-training", helping another instructor). After they've had some experience with that, they get the more advanced half of the workshop and can start teaching classes solo (though still under the direction of an instructor).

I've toyed with the idea of putting some of that material together to offer to instructors of all styles. As has been said, most instructors don't get any formal training on instruction, and there are some solid basics all could benefit from.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I tell "Students" some 4th Dan to teach how I taught them. If they think they have a better way let me know and we will consider it. I also tell them how and what to teach. I watch them teach and provide feedback.

 

[Earl Weiss]

FWIW. Been teaching over 40 years and I am still learning how to teach. For instance. Students who don't know and get confused about turning right or left. I learned they can see their pinky finger and if the turn follows a punch and it is to the same direction as the extended hand I tell them to turn in the direction of the pinky. Another example recently when teaching a "Wedging Block". They had no idea what a "Wedge" shape was. But they knew what a triangle was so firstt i had to show them that a wedge was triangle shape. Neither of these is "Master" level stuff.

 

[Buka]

Here's something - I don't think just anyone can teach (anything really) especially Martial Arts. There's a certain art to teaching that's different than the science of teaching.....I'm not really sure if I know how to express it in words.

Think about when you were clawing your way through the first five years you were a student in a dojo. There was probably more than one person that taught classes. I think we all had our favorites, kind of human nature. I don't think that "favorite" had anything to do with class being easy or hard, or what the rank of the teacher was, it was more how the teaching applied to you, personally. Maybe it was a motivation the person inspired in you, maybe it was the way he/she spoke/explained, maybe it was something else.

I think, when there's different teachers in a dojo, some teach some things more effectively than others. Some might be better at technical aspects of position, some at fighting, some at kata, some at stance and footwork, some might know how to express what adaptability is.

Any thoughts on this? Do you think that anyone can teach?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here's something - I don't think just anyone can teach (anything really) especially Martial Arts. There's a certain art to teaching that's different than the science of teaching.....I'm not really sure if I know how to express it in words.

Think about when you were clawing your way through the first five years you were a student in a dojo. There was probably more than one person that taught classes. I think we all had our favorites, kind of human nature. I don't think that "favorite" had anything to do with class being easy or hard, or what the rank of the teacher was, it was more how the teaching applied to you, personally. Maybe it was a motivation the person inspired in you, maybe it was the way he/she spoke/explained, maybe it was something else.

I think, when there's different teachers in a dojo, some teach some things more effectively than others. Some might be better at technical aspects of position, some at fighting, some at kata, some at stance and footwork, some might know how to express what adaptability is.

Any thoughts on this? Do you think that anyone can teach?

I agree, to an extent. I think anyone can teach, but not everyone will be great at it. It's a skill I think anyone can learn to be really good at, but only if they are willing to learn (excepting those who naturally stumble into good habits for teaching), set aside their ego, and learn from their mistakes. Many won't do enough of those things, and some frankly don't want to.

This limitation is part of the reason why I moved the instructor training to after the candidate reaches black belt level. I wanted everyone to have the opportunity to get that belt (it's sort of a milestone for those of us who train in styles that have them), even those who probably shouldn't teach or don't want to.