Does YouTube demo’s show the whole technique?

[Holmejr]

I’m coming from and FMA perspective, but most every example of a technique that I view on YouTube only shows a portion of that technique. This is kinda true with stick work, but especially true with knife work. Usually the technique doesn’t show angling off or destruction, it typically just shows beginning and end result and not what it takes to get there. Do you find this true in your own MA?

 

[geezer]

I’m coming from and FMA perspective, but virtually every example of a technique that I view on YouTube only shows a portion of that technique. This is true with stick work, but especially true with knife work. Usually the technique doesn’t show angling off or destruction, it typically just shows beginning and end result and not what it takes to get there. Do you find this true in your own MA?

Yep. Sometimes it seems intentional, but more often just a matter of it not being practical to show everything in one clip.

That's just for the stuff posted by people who actually know what they're doing. Of course, for every knowledgeable poster there are dozens of idiots posting garbage.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I’m coming from and FMA perspective, but virtually every example of a technique that I view on YouTube only shows a portion of that technique. This is true with stick work, but especially true with knife work. Usually the technique doesn’t show angling off or destruction, it typically just shows beginning and end result and not what it takes to get there. Do you find this true in your own MA?

Yeah I think most online weapon demos are pretty artificial. Possibly all. And sparring/comp is not that far removed.

Think about what they are.

Weapons are intended to maim and kill, full stop. Short of that, even if done fast and precise, is a sort of play acting.

Groups like Dog Brothers and others get together to test this stuff out (esp. FMA given the founders background) but even there, it's controlled. Protector gear makes people try more aggressive stuff, and nobody is breaking bones or major blood loss (well, it's not common). So even there, is a fun factor that is NOT there if you're being attacked with a 12 inch blade IRL.

So I think everything short of a real weapon attack is going to look a bit staged or partial, depending on the exp of the viewer. It's kind of like a black hole...you can never really see 100%, because that's when people die. You can get close but it's just the event horizon.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yep. Sometimes it seems intentional, but more often just a matter of it not being practical to show everything in one clip.

That's just for the stuff posted by people who actually know what they're doing. Of course, for every knowledgeable poster there are dozens of idiots posting garbage.

So true.

I'll dabble a bit in Wing Chun's biz again, if you don't mind.

This is just my opine but the FMA dudes have really kept their double knife skills alive, because they said "hey let's do it with flexible sticks!" And that was genius. The training is alive, but non lethal.

Compared to WC schools who claim to train double butterfly blades (one of the coolest double weapons ever), but never do any practical sparring with them. Some solo fist sets, maybe some 2 man drills.

These are things that make me wonder why WC can't just pick up sticks like FMA did. How cool would that be, to see a WC school doing double blade sparring, but with rattan? One can dream...

 

[skribs]

Could you provide an example of what you're talking about?

In general, I feel martial artists are too quick to judge a piece of published content (video, forum post, etc) by what's not there than by what is. When what's not there might have been edited out or just not considered, instead of what the critic assumes is a knowledge gap.

For example, if I were to post a video of a hand grab technique done from a cross-hand grab, and someone were to comment, "that only works if they grab you that way, this idiot doesn't even know how to deal with a straight-hand grab." It's a silly criticism, because it assumes that I don't know something because I didn't spell it out for them.

However, from your description, it sounds more like the description is something along the lines of: "If you find yourself in a cross-hand grab, then a very easy escape is to get them into a wrist lock, and then once you're in this position (having skipped through the wristlock and take-down) you can break the elbow like this!" In this case, it would make more sense for the video to start near the end of the technique, since that is what is being shown.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

only shows a portion of that technique.

In a fist flying environment, the normal procedure should be to use

- kick/kicks to set up punch/punches.
- punch/punches to set up clinch.
- clinch to set up take down.
- take down to set up ground game.

Most of the Judo clips don't show "how to obtain a clinch".

Also most of the BJJ clips don't show "how to take your opponent down".

 

[Holmejr]

We sometimes get folks interested in our classes that have learned from these videos and feel that they have a fairly good grasp of the art. They are always surprised to find out that there is more to it and NO the knife doesn’t just magical comes out of the attackers hands.

 

[skribs]

We sometimes get folks interested in our classes that have learned from these videos and feel that they have a fairly good grasp of the art. They are always surprised to find out that there is more to it and NO the knife doesn’t just magical comes out of the attackers hands.

This is going to happen no matter how good the videos are, because you're not getting feedback from coaches or sparring partners.

This problem predates youtube. Look at The Karate Kid, how he was trying to learn Karate from books before Mr. Miyagi started teaching him. I realize it's a fictional movie, but the idea that you can't learn just from books is correct.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Speaking of video and book training more generically, I have and continue to believe that they do not and cannot adequately substitute for in-person training by a qualified instructor. From the simplest techniques on up. I can show photos or videos of a simple block from any number of angles, but it's not going to convey the feeling of the necessary body mechanics to lock it in correctly and really make it work. Especially because body types differ and there isn't a generic and universal way for each person. You just have to feel it.

I've used the example of riding a bicycle before; you can read about riding a bike. You can see photos and videos of people riding bikes. You can learn theory about riding bikes. But to learn balance, you have to ride a bike.

I will admit that an experienced martial artist can frequently watch a video and pick up a technique without being able to 'see' every detail; I'd put that down to experience. But you have to get to that point in your training before you can read about or watch a technique and just 'get it'.

My 2 cents. I'm aware that others see remote learning differently.

 

[skribs]

Speaking of video and book training more generically, I have and continue to believe that they do not and cannot adequately substitute for in-person training by a qualified instructor. From the simplest techniques on up. I can show photos or videos of a simple block from any number of angles, but it's not going to convey the feeling of the necessary body mechanics to lock it in correctly and really make it work. Especially because body types differ and there isn't a generic and universal way for each person. You just have to feel it.

I've used the example of riding a bicycle before; you can read about riding a bike. You can see photos and videos of people riding bikes. You can learn theory about riding bikes. But to learn balance, you have to ride a bike.

I will admit that an experienced martial artist can frequently watch a video and pick up a technique without being able to 'see' every detail; I'd put that down to experience. But you have to get to that point in your training before you can read about or watch a technique and just 'get it'.

My 2 cents. I'm aware that others see remote learning differently.

I think videos are a great supplement to training, but agree they are not a good substitute.

I also think an experienced martial artist has enough body awareness and sparring experience to properly work on the techniques in a video. You've built up that connection to know where each foot, hand, knee, elbow, etc. is. Or in grappling, you've learned what leverage feels like.

 

[Blindside]

deleted

 

[Blindside]

Compared to WC schools who claim to train double butterfly blades (one of the coolest double weapons ever), but never do any practical sparring with them. Some solo fist sets, maybe some 2 man drills.

To be fair many of those schools are also not doing practical sparring unarmed either, so asking them to make the jump to weapons sparring might be a bit much.

These are things that make me wonder why WC can't just pick up sticks like FMA did. How cool would that be, to see a WC school doing double blade sparring, but with rattan? One can dream...

Or do the HEMA route with steel double blades....

 

[geezer]

These are things that make me wonder why WC can't just pick up sticks like FMA did. How cool would that be, to see a WC school doing double blade sparring, but with rattan? One can dream...

We do Wing Chun and Eskrima (coming out of the old Latosa PMAS system). Emin also taught Rene Latosa's stuff. Very practical and down to earth. I try not to mix the two (WC and FMA) but they do reinforce each other. Trouble is, I'm an old guy with a small group and not exactly making an impact in the WC martial arts scene!

 

[tkdroamer]

I’m coming from and FMA perspective, but most every example of a technique that I view on YouTube only shows a portion of that technique. This is kinda true with stick work, but especially true with knife work. Usually the technique doesn’t show angling off or destruction, it typically just shows beginning and end result and not what it takes to get there. Do you find this true in your own MA?

Agree. Some of it is click bait. To either get more views or get a person interested enough to hopefully join a class.

 

[skribs]

One thing to keep in mind is that writing and editing a video is a completely different skillset from teaching in a class. Just like (as we discovered during COVID) teaching via Zoom is different than teaching via in-person training. Just like a private lesson is a different skill than running a class with 30 students.

Many videos are simply poorly edited (or not edited at all). Many are not scripted and are just ramblings by the person posting it. An unscripted, single-camera-on-a-tripod video with no editing is going to be hard to follow and difficult to watch. Even though that's the viewpoint you get in a class (your eyes are the only eyes that see it, and you can't edit real life). This is because the speaker is able to respond to the students, instead of having to anticipate their responses. In most cases, this goes one of two ways:

1. Glosses over information assuming the viewer should know it.
2. Tries to answer every potential question.

The first is somewhat forgivable if the video is intended for your students. For example, my Hapkido school had memorized "techniques" that were really a combination of several techniques to defend against various grabs. For example, it might be that #7 would be to set a wrist lock to shock your opponent, and use that shock to convert it to an elbow lock, which you then use to take them down, and then break the arm.

If I were to do a video on this aimed at general viewers, I wouldn't necessarily call it "#7" because that's something that only really matters on our test. I would probably use a name or description. I also would first demonstrate the technique before going into the details I want to go into, so that way we're all on the same page. However, if I were to do a video aimed specifically at students in my Hapkido class, then I might just go into the details I want to cover, because I expect they learned the basic movements in class already.

The second, on the other hand, is the exact opposite. This is where instructors will try to answer every potential question as they think of it, which just makes the entire video incredibly confusing. On top of the ahs, ums, and pauses that don't get edited out, you have to figure out when are they doing a rabbit trail, and when are they talking about the technique itself.

Again, if you're making a video, this can be solved by showing the technique first, and answering many common questions later on.

There is a guy whose videos I watched when I first started Taekwondo as an adult, Ginger Ninja Trickster. He would do kicking tutorials, and they were very well done, in part because of the scripting and editing. His video would typically be arranged like this:

1. Demonstrations of the technique in sparring, board breaking, and in the air; in slow or fast motion
2. Step-by-step how to do the technique, with important details at each step
3. Variations and applications of the technique
4. Troubleshooting common problems if you are unable to execute the technique

Videos like this will do a very good job of giving the viewer the information.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It depends on what you mean by "the whole technique."

I could demo a technique and explain every detail I know about how it works, the situational context, the setups, the what-ifs, the aftermath, the underlying physical and tactical principles, the common mistakes, the common variations, etc. It would only take a couple of hours for a single technique.

So realistically, someone making a demo video has to pick a little snapshot of time and decide what elements are most important to show and explain. This may depend on the intended audience and what they are already expected to understand about the context and the concepts involved. Some instructors do a much better job than others in deciding what details to show and explain.

In BJJ, there's actually quite a lot of really good YouTube instructional material out there. There's also some mediocre material and even some trash. However almost all of it assumes prior experience and understanding of the art. (Sometimes just the basics, sometimes advanced knowledge is necessary to make use of what is shown.)

 

[dunc]

I agree with @Tony Dismukes broader point on BJJ

I'd add that my BJJ instructor, whilst being pretty generous on youtube, totally holds back certain details and even whole techniques / systems. I think that this is deliberate, kinda along the lines of "unless you train with me you'll not get XYZ info"

In the traditional Japanese arts this dynamic is magnified massively

And this is probably normal human nature, especially with folk who've worked hard to obtain info