Does it matter part 2 (the sequel lol)

[ppko]

Ok now my question is we have established a punch is a punch a kick is a kick....etc so now does style matter

 

[CuongNhuka]

Read my post in part 1, I answered that. To sum it up, the answer is no.

 

[MJS]

Ok now my question is we have established a punch is a punch a kick is a kick....etc so now does style matter

Slight differences in application my be visable, but overall, I'd have to say no. If that was the case, then people who train in art "A" would only be able to defend against others in art "A". Self defense techniques teach us a foundation to build from. You simply adapt to whats presented to you at the time.

Mike

 

[stoneheart]

My post in the other thread was pretty clear, I thought. Yes, style does matter. Yes, all styles have means of avoiding a punch or a kick, but they have specific methodology and philosophy that explains how and why they do it their way. If you clearly understand your own style, there should be clear distinction between you and someone else practicing another martial art. A Goju-ryu karate-ka should not look like a taekwondo stylist and vice versa, although both are punching and kicking arts.

 

[exile]

My post in the other thread was pretty clear, I thought. Yes, style does matter. Yes, all styles have means of avoiding a punch or a kick, but they have specific methodology and philosophy that explains how and why they do it their way. If you clearly understand your own style, there should be clear distinction between you and someone else practicing another martial art. A Goju-ryu karate-ka should not look like a taekwondo stylist and vice versa, although both are punching and kicking arts.

The way I think of this is, different martial arts have different strategic objectives and guiding principles. They employ similar tactical resources, but they may very well organize them differently depending on their strategic plan. I'm talking here about defensive responses to street violence, not to sport contest rules. That's a different kettle of worms entirely...

So for example, there are more circular arts, involving avoidance, deflection and control as the primary strategic goals: using the attacker's momentum to unbalance him and enforce compliance, with strikes held in reserve as possibly a tool to, um, guarantee continued compliance, say? I think, obviously, of Aikido, with a sizeable chunk of Hapkido and, just looking from the outside, a fair number of CMAs. There are more linear striking arts—the respective Okinawan, Japanese and Korean versions of karate—where control is not the end itself; rather, the strategic principles involve closing the distance, optimally so you are outside the attacker via deflection of his attack, using hitike types of movement to anchor him and muchimi techniques to convert an anchoring limb into a striking limb, and a striking limb into an anchoring limb, so as to keep up a steady rain of hard strikes, any one of which, ideally, will be delivered in a way that can end the attack permanently. And so on. Within the linear arts, there are probably significant subdifferences in strategic planning as well (Wing Chun will use punching in a somewhat different way than TKD will). I think the differences among the arts are differences on this order. A punch is a punch, kick is a kick, but how you apply these tactical possibilities in a way guided by strategic oversight is obviously going to depend on what strategy you're planning to adhere to—and in that domain, I think there are indeed important differences amongst the arts, as stoneheart suggests in the subquote I've bolded...

 

[ppko]

ok now here is where I am going IMHO if really it is the same than whats the difference in all actuality our bodies only move certain ways, if you can break down a Kata to make it effective on the street than does your style really matter in short no, so does it matter the style you take in short no. So then if you get the basic concepts down and movements why is it such a big deal when someone gets promoted quickly in an art if they pick up the katas who cares the movements are the same.

 

[bluemtn]

I'm not sure if this is what you're after...

Just learning kata's isn't enough, you also have to have quite a bit of accuracy, power, and speed as well. All of these can take some time to perfect through practice for "fine- tuning." Also, just doing kata's/ forms isn't enough. You should also practice the moves in sparring, on an opponent.

 

[Bigshadow]

My post in the other thread was pretty clear, I thought. Yes, style does matter. Yes, all styles have means of avoiding a punch or a kick, but they have specific methodology and philosophy...

and purpose. Some are for empty hand, some are for weapons, some are for a specific type of weapon, and lets not forget competition. I believe style does matter. However, when it comes to a kick or punch, those arts that deal with those things all ultimately lead to the same place for kicks and punches.

 

[exile]

ok now here is where I am going IMHO if really it is the same than whats the difference in all actuality our bodies only move certain ways, if you can break down a Kata to make it effective on the street than does your style really matter in short no, so does it matter the style you take in short no.

Well, if what you're saying is that styles with similar kata are going to be strategically and tactically similar because the kata are built around certain strategic and tactical concepts, then sure, you're going to get the same kind of combat behavior by practitioners who train applications of kata bunkai. But CMAs and JMAs, for example, will have very different-looking forms respectively, because they typically involve somewhat different strategic ideas, and the forms will reflect that.

So then if you get the basic concepts down and movements why is it such a big deal when someone gets promoted quickly in an art if they pick up the katas who cares the movements are the same.

Whoa, hang on a second—you're glossing over the critical aspect of `getting the forms down and movements'. You have to learn the forms, learn how to extract solid, effective applications from them and then train those applications in increasingly realistic contexts, in order to actually get SD benefits from them. And that is going to take time—time to see what's involved, time to imitate it, time to repeat it enough to internalize it, and time to learn how to use it under the five-alarm stress of a real fight. Rapid promotion is suspicious because most people need enough time for all that, and rapid promotion suggests that they're getting recognition for belt rank for accomplishments that they can't possibly have trained enough to actually achieve. It devalues the currency that the rank system is supposed to reflect.

 

[ppko]

let me go further with this if you are proficient in the basics lets say good enough to be a 4th degree or whetever (legitimate) and you decide to change styles for whatever reason y is it such a big deal if you get promoted to a fifth degree in that art after you learn the katas if a punch really is a punch and a kick really is a kick than whats the difference

 

[ppko]

Well, if what you're saying is that styles with similar kata are going to be strategically and tactically similar because the kata are built around certain strategic and tactical concepts, then sure, you're going to get the same kind of combat behavior by practitioners who train applications of kata bunkai. But CMAs and JMAs, for example, will have very different-looking forms respectively, because they typically involve somewhat different strategic ideas, and the forms will reflect that.



Whoa, hang on a second—you're glossing over the critical aspect of `getting the forms down and movements'. You have to learn the forms, learn how to extract solid, effective applications from them and then train those applications in increasingly realistic contexts, in order to actually get SD benefits from them. And that is going to take time—time to see what's involved, time to imitate it, time to repeat it enough to internalize it, and time to learn how to use it under the five-alarm stress of a real fight. Rapid promotion is suspicious because most people need enough time for all that, and rapid promotion suggests that they're getting recognition for belt rank for accomplishments that they can't possibly have trained enough to actually achieve. It devalues the currency that the rank system is supposed to reflect.

great reply and I agree to a certain degree I do not believe in rapid promotion either, but what I am saying is once you have learned the katas and to me that is not just the movements, once you learn how to effectively break down katas at least this is how I feel breaking down another styles kataa is not that hard sure there will be places that may get you stuck but hey there is vast amount of knowledge in this world and a lot of it is easily accesible thanks to the internet though you just got to be careful on who you listen to and be able to pick out the bs

 

[stoneheart]

let me go further with this if you are proficient in the basics lets say good enough to be a 4th degree or whetever (legitimate) and you decide to change styles for whatever reason y is it such a big deal if you get promoted to a fifth degree in that art after you learn the katas if a punch really is a punch and a kick really is a kick than whats the difference

IMO you have an incorrect understanding of how different systems embody differing martial theories. Consider the example of Shito-ryu karate-do vs. Goju-ryu karate-do. Shito-ryu has many of the same kata as Goju, so under your reasoning above you would conclude that after achieving 3rd dan in Goju, you should be able to test for 4th dan in Shito-ryu after a small period of adjustment.

That line of thinking could not be farther from wrong! To generalize, Goju is close quarters combat and the bunkai in their kata reinforce that concept. Shito-ryu is more of a speedy, in and out fighting system. They will move in to pepper their opponent with a barrage of strikes, but a shito-ryu stylist is not always looking to close and destroy - in fact very frequently they would be happy with hitting a couple of blows and then stepping out again to look for another opportunity later.

Traditional martial arts is more than a collection of kicks and punches. If you focus only on the kihon you're missing most of the system altogether.

 

[Bigshadow]

great reply and I agree to a certain degree I do not believe in rapid promotion either, but what I am saying is once you have learned the katas and to me that is not just the movements, once you learn how to effectively break down katas at least this is how I feel breaking down another styles kataa is not that hard sure there will be places that may get you stuck but hey there is vast amount of knowledge in this world and a lot of it is easily accesible thanks to the internet though you just got to be careful on who you listen to and be able to pick out the bs

It is my opinion that when one has internalized and understands the underlying principles of what works, they can certainly look at something that another art is doing and recognize whether it works and is effective, because they see the same principles at work. It doesn't mean they know the other art though. That is entirely different. It only means they can easily recognize whether that one thing works or not.

 

[ppko]

IMO you have an incorrect understanding of how different systems embody differing martial theories. Consider the example of Shito-ryu karate-do vs. Goju-ryu karate-do. Shito-ryu has many of the same kata as Goju, so under your reasoning above you would conclude that after achieving 3rd dan in Goju, you should be able to test for 4th dan in Shito-ryu after a small period of adjustment.

That line of thinking could not be farther from wrong! To generalize, Goju is close quarters combat and the bunkai in their kata reinforce that concept. Shito-ryu is more of a speedy, in and out fighting system. They will move in to pepper their opponent with a barrage of strikes, but a shito-ryu stylist is not always looking to close and destroy - in fact very frequently they would be happy with hitting a couple of blows and then stepping out again to look for another opportunity later.

Traditional martial arts is more than a collection of kicks and punches. If you focus only on the kihon you're missing most of the system altogether.

good just to throw a little more coal on the fire this is only my oppinion any good art if taught correctly will incorporate all ranges of fighting at least that is the way it has been for any art I have studied, and this is also shown in the katas

 

[ppko]

It is my opinion that when one has internalized and understands the underlying principles of what works, they can certainly look at something that another art is doing and recognize whether it works and is effective, because they see the same principles at work. It doesn't mean they know the other art though. That is entirely different. It only means they can easily recognize whether that one thing works or not.

Loved the reply and like the way this discussion is going so whatt is knowing another style if this is truly martial that we are learning than effective and efficient use of the techniques should be enough

 

[stoneheart]

good just to throw a little more coal on the fire this is only my oppinion any good art if taught correctly will incorporate all ranges of fighting at least that is the way it has been for any art I have studied, and this is also shown in the katas

I'm not sure what you're getting at, ppko, since you're changing topics. For clarity's sake, could you summarize what you wanted to highlight or argue within this thread?

As for your statement above, boxing and wrestling are examples of specialized martial arts that really do NOT incorporate all ranges of fighting. Nonetheless, they are still good arts to know and study.

 

[Bigshadow]

Loved the reply and like the way this discussion is going so whatt is knowing another style if this is truly martial that we are learning than effective and efficient use of the techniques should be enough

I personally am not a proponent of jumping from style to style or cross training. For me, I am happy with what I am getting in my art. Others in my art certainly differ, I can only speak for myself.

Back to... "Does it matter?" Yes, depending on your purpose for learning.

 

[ppko]

I'm not sure what you're getting at, ppko, since you're changing topics. For clarity's sake, could you summarize what you wanted to highlight or argue within this thread?

As for your statement above, boxing and wrestling are examples of specialized martial arts that really do NOT incorporate all ranges of fighting. Nonetheless, they are still good arts to know and study.

while they are good competition sports when I refer to Martial Arts I am speaking of arts that were made for true combat not sport

 

[ppko]

I personally am not a proponent of jumping from style to style or cross training. For me, I am happy with what I am getting in my art. Others in my art certainly differ, I can only speak for myself.

Back to... "Does it matter?" Yes, depending on your purpose for learning.

Agreed and niether am I but I am a fan of staying with an instructor till you get to the point of where u reach your plato with that instructor so now you have to find someone that can take you further and sometimes the only way to do that is to go to a different style

 

[stoneheart]

while they are good competition sports when I refer to Martial Arts I am speaking of arts that were made for true combat not sport

There's historical evidence that shows both both classical wrestling and boxing were taught as fighting systems in Greece, particularly among the Athenians and the Spartans. Both can be sport, but they can be practiced in a martial manner also. The same applies to karate or jujitsu or any other martial art for that matter.

Agreed and niether am I but I am a fan of staying with an instructor till you get to the point of where u reach your plato with that instructor so now you have to find someone that can take you further and sometimes the only way to do that is to go to a different style

I'd suggest just selecting a skilled and knowledgeable instructor in the first place. The teacher/student relationship is important to me. I would rather grow with a sensei that has much to teach me than hop around looking for this week's Cobra Kai guy. There are plenty of skilled fighters I would never think of accepting as my teacher. Could they teach me something? Yes. Could I grow with them? Perhaps not.