Do you have a progressive mind set?

OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
543
Reaction score
109
Location
NJ, USA
Sweet. The 棍 is a great area to examine Wing Chun principles, especially biu ji.

There is a great pole drill in the southern family styles that incorporates both bridging and forearm conditioning. I doubt I can find a video of it, but basically it combines snake and dragon mechanics into an agility and conditioning exercise for two people. You can also do the drill by yourself if you're creative enough. I'll look for it.

If you know what I'm talking about, it combines siu num tao, biu ji, and chum kiu into one really beautiful 2-person drill. With a weapon.
I like to see that
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,461
Reaction score
4,202
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
so does 7 star mantis as well. which is a northern style
Agree! The 7 star mantis "catch grasshopper" that both hands strike from the center of the chest also use the center line principle. It's circular move that a small circle followed by a large circle, and a large circle followed by a small circle non-stopped (similar to WC chain punches).
 
OP
futsaowingchun

futsaowingchun

Black Belt
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
543
Reaction score
109
Location
NJ, USA
Agree! The 7 star mantis "catch grasshopper" that both hands strike from the center of the chest also use the center line principle. It's circular move that a small circle followed by a large circle, and a large circle followed by a small circle non-stopped (similar to WC chain punches).
I actually like the 7 star mantis a lot i met a sifu of this style and he taught me the Bun Bo which is their 1sr form. has a lot of good stuff in it'
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,737
Reaction score
1,349
I like to see that
I can't find a video of it, so I made this picture that sums it up.

1636435185704.png
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,131
Reaction score
5,326
My entire take is that a person can progress a martial arts without actually using the techniques found in it. Once you do this, it will naturally progress and it will naturally have new things added to it.

The more you use something the better you get at it. The better you understand it, and the more likely it will eventually advance with new approaches and new techniques.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
21,589
Reaction score
7,108
Location
Covington, WA
My entire take is that a person can progress a martial arts without actually using the techniques found in it. Once you do this, it will naturally progress and it will naturally have new things added to it.

The more you use something the better you get at it. The better you understand it, and the more likely it will eventually advance with new approaches and new techniques.
I see posts like this and think about the movie theater projector operator. Boy, that was a skilled job... not only did you need to understand how to use the beasts that were used to project the movies (giant 70mm behemoths that even now will run you $25 to $30k). You also had to work quickly to repair the machine, replace the bulbs, splice the film if things went haywire, and generally keep the rabble happy before they turned on you when things went awry. This was a complex skillset that was important and thriving well into the 90s and early 2000s. Shoot, I worked downtown just a few blocks away on Lenora in Seattle when Paul Allen renovated the old Cinerama theater, which was amazing. First digital projector I'm aware of in the Seattle area, and the beginning of the end for the Projectionist, and that was in 1997, IIRC.

So, the relevant question is how, in 2022 (practically), can I become a skilled film projectionist? And will I ever naturally progress in the skill set without having a venue in which to exercise my skills (much less have new things added to it)?

I do agree that the more you use something the better you get at it. I just don't think we always agree on what "using something" actually looks like. Sometimes, I feel like we're pretty close, but then other days, I feel like we're talking about somehow becoming an expert in an obsolete and impractical skill set, like the projectionist of old.
 

Oily Dragon

Senior Master
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
2,737
Reaction score
1,349
Isn't that a percent sign? :)
From the air, sure.

I'm no good at drawing. Imagine these two characters in any one of the mother stances. The adduction version is particularly good.

Partners take turns trading tan sao to condition their da saam sing (3 stars) points and then reverse to grab the pole before it falls to the ground.

Done correctly the pole will appear to float in the air. Done wrong, you drop the staff loudly, and your face gets all red because everyone knows you goofed.

1636482076762.png
 
Last edited:

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
13,461
Reaction score
4,202
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
So, isn't it time to progress your Wing Chun to the next level?
Can you category the WC system into many different principles? Those principles then can be mapped into many different techniques.

When people has learned a new form, I like to ask that person, "What new principles have you learned in your new form?"
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,287
Reaction score
3,464
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I see posts like this and think about the movie theater projector operator. Boy, that was a skilled job... other days, I feel like we're talking about somehow becoming an expert in an obsolete and impractical skill set, like the projectionist of old.
This was a really thought provoking thread for me. In fact, I read it a couple of times.

I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.

And, I wonder what that says about me that I am attracted to such activities. I also am a good potter, have tried my hand at smithing, hema, archery ...even flint knapping. Talk about obsolete skills! And yet they have brought me much enjoyment.

Not sure if learning to run an old projector would do that ...for me, anyway. Might for others though. :)
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,064
Reaction score
7,732
This was a really thought provoking thread for me. In fact, I read it a couple of times.

I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.

And, I wonder what that says about me that I am attracted to such activities. I also am a good potter, have tried my hand at smithing, hema, archery ...even flint knapping. Talk about obsolete skills! And yet they have brought me much enjoyment.

Not sure if learning to run an old projector would do that ...for me, anyway. Might for others though. :)

Yeah. But you are still doing the actual skill. I assume if you want to be a black smith at some point you expect to make a horse shoe.

Esoteric isn't the point.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,851
Location
San Francisco
This was a really thought provoking thread for me. In fact, I read it a couple of times.

I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.

And, I wonder what that says about me that I am attracted to such activities. I also am a good potter, have tried my hand at smithing, hema, archery ...even flint knapping. Talk about obsolete skills! And yet they have brought me much enjoyment.

Not sure if learning to run an old projector would do that ...for me, anyway. Might for others though. :)
From my own experience, I would disagree that TMA methods are obsolete skills. I do believe that they may not be well received by the modern, Western mindset so they may have a more limited appeal, compared to modern competition approaches.

One of the first things I told my students was that our system does not look like what people raised on a steady diet of MMA expect a combat method to look like. It is strange. I can admit that from the get-go.

But when you understand why we do the things we do, what those exercises are meant to develop, and then how we apply those skills, it becomes apparent that there is a sensical methodology in place. And those skills that we develop are effective and absolutely relevant. What matters is that we find a method that speaks to us, personally, never mind what others may think of it.

By the way, I’ve also done a bit of flint knapping, pottery, archery, and love archaic weaponry. I rebuild sword hilts and scabbards, by way of example. Just sayin’.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
13,131
Reaction score
5,326
I feel that many, perhaps most TMA are like this. Obsolete skills. Cool, artful, demanding and entertaining, but essentially obsolete by any practical standard, including as fighting methods ...at least in their traditional forms.
I look at Jow ga with the understanding that not everything in a form is meant for fighting. Some things have a conditioning function be it mental or physical. The difficulty with TMA is that we tend to lump it all together in a form vs training them separately and that causes confusion if teachers aren't consistently and accurately pointing out the which is which. We saw a lot of this confusion in the Aikido threads.

If a fighting skill does become obsolete then it's good to know the old way for historical purposes but better to train the improved version for self-defense purposes. Some things may be "obsolete" depending on where you live. I'm not going to get a lot of staff fighting use in the use because of guns. But that story may be different if I live in India (there appears to be a lot of stick fights there).
 

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
7,287
Reaction score
3,464
Location
Phoenix, AZ
@ the OP what is your opinion of the Wing Tsun system from Leung ting?
Each of the traditional lineages and their off-shoot branches has strengths and weaknesses.

Within the "WT" branches (coming from Leung Ting) you see that too. Sifu Leung had legit skills within the confines of what WC/WT is: a short bridge (close range) stand-up, striking art. And in the early years (1980s) that I trained with LT, he was more generous about sharing his knowledge.

Later on, politics and money soured our relationship some, and my life situation changed. I married, started a family and career, so I couldn't really continue as before and left off training WT.

About 15 years later I gave it a second go and ended up training with my old si-dai who had reached "master" or "practition" rank in the interim and was running LT's organization in the US at the time. On the positive side, he had trained both directly both under GM LT here in the States and also for some years with the EWTO in Germany, including time directly with GM Keith Kernspect. On the negative side, shortly after I started training with this man, he broke with LT so both he and his group (including me) got "excommunicated".

Now I'm kinda independent ...of everybody. I still travel about 1,000 miles to train with my si-dai about once a year, but he is rigidly traditional and authoritarian in his teaching, and I like to explore ideas and try different things. So we don't totally see eye to eye. I'm still happy to learn from him, but he's no longer so happy to share stuff with me since I'm independent and don't run a school branch for him anymore. Funny how history repeats itself, eh?

So what about WT? In my experience, LT was very good, and his soft and flexible interpretation of the WC/WT system was fascinating and effective. I feel that it was among the best WC that I encountered.

On the other hand, his claims that his WT is a totally "complete" art didn't hold water even back in the 80s. And now with over three decades of MMA as a "proving ground"...such claims are patently absurd. Certainly, WT has merits, but to be a complete system that could be applied successfully in open competition, of course you need a good grappling background as well as long range punching and kicking skills. For most young, athletic people who "want to fight" a good MMA gym would get you to that goal faster ...if that's what you want.

On the other hand, for an older guy who does TMA for recreation and ...possibly might use it for self-defense some day, My WT and Escrima, plus the experience of having been a wrestler in my youth ...well that suits me fine. :)
 

caped crusader

Brown Belt
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Messages
406
Reaction score
134
Each of the traditional lineages and their off-shoot branches has strengths and weaknesses.

Within the "WT" branches (coming from Leung Ting) you see that too. Sifu Leung had legit skills within the confines of what WC/WT is: a short bridge (close range) stand-up, striking art. And in the early years (1980s) that I trained with LT, he was more generous about sharing his knowledge.

Later on, politics and money soured our relationship some, and my life situation changed. I married, started a family and career, so I couldn't really continue as before and left off training WT.

About 15 years later I gave it a second go and ended up training with my old si-dai who had reached "master" or "practition" rank in the interim and was running LT's organization in the US at the time. On the positive side, he had trained both directly both under GM LT here in the States and also for some years with the EWTO in Germany, including time directly with GM Keith Kernspect. On the negative side, shortly after I started training with this man, he broke with LT so both he and his group (including me) got "excommunicated".

Now I'm kinda independent ...of everybody. I still travel about 1,000 miles to train with my si-dai about once a year, but he is rigidly traditional and authoritarian in his teaching, and I like to explore ideas and try different things. So we don't totally see eye to eye. I'm still happy to learn from him, but he's no longer so happy to share stuff with me since I'm independent and don't run a school branch for him anymore. Funny how history repeats itself, eh?

So what about WT? In my experience, LT was very good, and his soft and flexible interpretation of the WC/WT system was fascinating and effective. I feel that it was among the best WC that I encountered.

On the other hand, his claims that his WT is a totally "complete" art didn't hold water even back in the 80s. And now with over three decades of MMA as a "proving ground"...such claims are patently absurd. Certainly, WT has merits, but to be a complete system that could be applied successfully in open competition, of course you need a good grappling background as well as long range punching and kicking skills. For most young, athletic people who "want to fight" a good MMA gym would get you to that goal faster ...if that's what you want.

On the other hand, for an older guy who does TMA for recreation and ...possibly might use it for self-defense some day, My WT and Escrima, plus the experience of having been a wrestler in my youth ...well that suits me fine. :)
Yes ...kernsprecht has moved into his "Blitz Defence"...honestly embarassing and most who trained here in Germany all left his Sekt. Money making. Some have adopted ground fighting into their WT. Mainly his Turkish students but all left the EWTO.
Suc as this guy..
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,064
Reaction score
7,732
Yes ...kernsprecht has moved into his "Blitz Defence"...honestly embarassing and most who trained here in Germany all left his Sekt. Money making. Some have adopted ground fighting into their WT. Mainly his Turkish students but all left the EWTO.
Suc as this guy..

Yeah. But that also isn't a very good application of ground fighting.

You can't just say you are doing it and that is the end of the discussion. You kind of have to do it right.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,851
Location
San Francisco
Each of the traditional lineages and their off-shoot branches has strengths and weaknesses.

Within the "WT" branches (coming from Leung Ting) you see that too. Sifu Leung had legit skills within the confines of what WC/WT is: a short bridge (close range) stand-up, striking art. And in the early years (1980s) that I trained with LT, he was more generous about sharing his knowledge.

Later on, politics and money soured our relationship some, and my life situation changed. I married, started a family and career, so I couldn't really continue as before and left off training WT.

About 15 years later I gave it a second go and ended up training with my old si-dai who had reached "master" or "practition" rank in the interim and was running LT's organization in the US at the time. On the positive side, he had trained both directly both under GM LT here in the States and also for some years with the EWTO in Germany, including time directly with GM Keith Kernspect. On the negative side, shortly after I started training with this man, he broke with LT so both he and his group (including me) got "excommunicated".

Now I'm kinda independent ...of everybody. I still travel about 1,000 miles to train with my si-dai about once a year, but he is rigidly traditional and authoritarian in his teaching, and I like to explore ideas and try different things. So we don't totally see eye to eye. I'm still happy to learn from him, but he's no longer so happy to share stuff with me since I'm independent and don't run a school branch for him anymore. Funny how history repeats itself, eh?

So what about WT? In my experience, LT was very good, and his soft and flexible interpretation of the WC/WT system was fascinating and effective. I feel that it was among the best WC that I encountered.

On the other hand, his claims that his WT is a totally "complete" art didn't hold water even back in the 80s. And now with over three decades of MMA as a "proving ground"...such claims are patently absurd. Certainly, WT has merits, but to be a complete system that could be applied successfully in open competition, of course you need a good grappling background as well as long range punching and kicking skills. For most young, athletic people who "want to fight" a good MMA gym would get you to that goal faster ...if that's what you want.

On the other hand, for an older guy who does TMA for recreation and ...possibly might use it for self-defense some day, My WT and Escrima, plus the experience of having been a wrestler in my youth ...well that suits me fine. :)
You’ve got to define what is meant by “complete”. I personally don’t believe a good and meaningful definition exists, without being linked to a specific context, which can be meaningless in other context. I certainly do not agree that engagement in competition gives some kind of priority to the definition.
 

Latest Discussions

Top