Different types of forms
- Thread starter Faye
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MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
We do the Palgue/Koryo forms.
I don't really have a favorite, just ones that I happen to be into more at certain times. Koryo is a very beautiful form to watch and execute.
There really are no secrets. Just lots of practice until you get it right. To me, one of the most fascinating aspects of form is to analyze each form to figure out what the various techniques are. When you actually understand what the form is doing, you can't help but be impressed by them.
I don't really have a favorite, just ones that I happen to be into more at certain times. Koryo is a very beautiful form to watch and execute.
There really are no secrets. Just lots of practice until you get it right. To me, one of the most fascinating aspects of form is to analyze each form to figure out what the various techniques are. When you actually understand what the form is doing, you can't help but be impressed by them.
Well we teach theWTF Tae gueks 1-9 then koryo , Taebek, we also teach the ITF Chungi system, at black Bassia so forth, About a year or so ago started learning the Pyung Ahn form interesting, have not Master then yet but I will one day and I agree number 3 is hard atleast for me, had the same problem with Taeguek 4 simple form just had problems.. GOD BLESS AMERICA
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Faye:
My original introduction to MA came after my military service and began with Shudokan Karate. We practiced many of the Okinawan forms ("kata"). What I find most interesting is the way in which certain sequences come up over and over again, perhaps attesting to their time-honored effectiveness both for training the body and capturing the essence of some aspect of combat. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
My original introduction to MA came after my military service and began with Shudokan Karate. We practiced many of the Okinawan forms ("kata"). What I find most interesting is the way in which certain sequences come up over and over again, perhaps attesting to their time-honored effectiveness both for training the body and capturing the essence of some aspect of combat. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I agree with all of you. Practice makes perfect.
One drill that the teachers make us do that forced us to understand the form is form intrepretation exercise. one person in the middle doing the form, and 4 people (one at each corner) attacks the middle person, of course, the attackers have to undestand the form, so they know how to attack appropriately.
Bruce, doesnt the shotokan form uses the same pyang form? That number 3 is just weird!!
One drill that the teachers make us do that forced us to understand the form is form intrepretation exercise. one person in the middle doing the form, and 4 people (one at each corner) attacks the middle person, of course, the attackers have to undestand the form, so they know how to attack appropriately.
Bruce, doesnt the shotokan form uses the same pyang form? That number 3 is just weird!!
Zepp
Master of Arts
Ah, good 'ol Pyong-an 3, a.k.a. "the funky rooster mating dance." I learned to love that form eventually, but only after I had been practicing it for a while, and I had started to incorporate some of the moves into my sparring and three-step. You know that that first sequence of moves is a block for a double punch, right?
My current favorites are Chul gi 1, and Pyong-an 5. I especially like using the jump in Pyong-an 5 to scare whoever's standing behind me. :EG: I don't think I have a least favorite, but Pal sek sometimes comes close just becuse it's so long. When I used to need help memorizing my forms, I would print out a piece of paper with the moves listed to keep nearby when I practiced alone.
Btw, yes the Pyong-an forms are also practiced in Shotokan. Actually, I'm told that all five forms originated as a single long form from a Northern Chinese art, but I couldn't tell you which one.
T
TKD USA
Guest
We do Taegeuk forms and my favorie one is Taegeuk chil jang (Taegeuk 7)
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Faye:
The short answer is "yes" but there is a bit more to it.
Itosu is pretty-much identified as the person who organized the Pinan (K. "pyong ahn") kata in the first decade of the 20th century. Some say he did it out of the material in KU SHAN KU kata and some say it was derived from the Chinese form "Channon". No one has been able to locate the Channon form so we are stuck knowing what it may have looked like. We still have the kata KU SHAN KU and it DOES have some of the same sequences found in the Pinan kata. Where things start getting a little dicey is when the kata is taken north to Japan by Funakoshi. His approach was to move away from the emphaisis on fighting to something closer to "physical culture"--- "gymnastics" if you will. His son and Nakayama of the JSA went even farther. In fact what was once #1 became #2 and vice versa. Then the Koreans learned the material and took it back to Korea with them and exaggerated the role of kicking in the form. So where does that leave us?
Well, the name Pyong Ahn is still the same, but the kata done in TKD/TSD is not excuted much like the Okinawan kata. The overall Korean format IS very much like the late Shotokan material but the kicks play a role in the Korean versions that was never intended in either the Okinawan or Japanese versions.
I think its also important to remember that the Okinawans traditionally never had Pinan kata for many years, choosing to start their students off with Naifanchi (J "Tekki"; K. "Chul Gi"). Personally I think everyone should start with TAN TUI but thats just me. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
The short answer is "yes" but there is a bit more to it.
Itosu is pretty-much identified as the person who organized the Pinan (K. "pyong ahn") kata in the first decade of the 20th century. Some say he did it out of the material in KU SHAN KU kata and some say it was derived from the Chinese form "Channon". No one has been able to locate the Channon form so we are stuck knowing what it may have looked like. We still have the kata KU SHAN KU and it DOES have some of the same sequences found in the Pinan kata. Where things start getting a little dicey is when the kata is taken north to Japan by Funakoshi. His approach was to move away from the emphaisis on fighting to something closer to "physical culture"--- "gymnastics" if you will. His son and Nakayama of the JSA went even farther. In fact what was once #1 became #2 and vice versa. Then the Koreans learned the material and took it back to Korea with them and exaggerated the role of kicking in the form. So where does that leave us?
Well, the name Pyong Ahn is still the same, but the kata done in TKD/TSD is not excuted much like the Okinawan kata. The overall Korean format IS very much like the late Shotokan material but the kicks play a role in the Korean versions that was never intended in either the Okinawan or Japanese versions.
I think its also important to remember that the Okinawans traditionally never had Pinan kata for many years, choosing to start their students off with Naifanchi (J "Tekki"; K. "Chul Gi"). Personally I think everyone should start with TAN TUI but thats just me. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
ITF here.
My favorite is Choong-Moo followed extremely close by Hwa-Rang. :asian:
My favorite is Choong-Moo followed extremely close by Hwa-Rang. :asian:
karatekid1975
Master Black Belt
I did TSD first, and I agree with you guys on Pyung ahn 3 .... gggrrrrr. I like the "funky rooster mating dance" comment LOL.
I do WTF TKD now. Out of all the forms I know between both arts, my fav has to be Pyung ahn 2. Taegeuk 7 comes in second. Taegeuk 8 is third. I think I will really like Koryo (when I get to it, that is LOL).
I do WTF TKD now. Out of all the forms I know between both arts, my fav has to be Pyung ahn 2. Taegeuk 7 comes in second. Taegeuk 8 is third. I think I will really like Koryo (when I get to it, that is LOL).
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
I think many of us like the forms that tend to have a greater number of outside techniques after the fashion of, say, Long Fist traditions. These forms are pleasant because the the moves and their applications tend to be rather demonstrative and obvious. Punches look like punches, kicks look like kicks and if there is a grapple its usually also pretty plain for what it is. Where I think we start having problems are those forms where the moves are Inside, not unlike a style like Wing Chun, and the applications may be a bit subtler. I think a kata like Pinan #3 is such a kata. FWIW.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I dont quite understand what you mean by "inside". But I do agree, I like forms that are pleasant to watch. I know... some of you will say if it's not pratical, whats the point. One of my friend practices Wing Chun, and his forms are very funky to watch, maybe he's not doing them right (he's a beginner), and his forms stays in the same spot with a very funky looking stance.
I dread the mating rooster dance form! LOL!
I dread the mating rooster dance form! LOL!
L
Littledragon
Guest
We do Taegeuk and Palgae forms. My favorite Taegeuk form in Tae Kwon Do would have to be Taegeuk Sa jang our green belt form. My favorite Palgae form would have to be Palgae Yuek Jang.
My favorite black belt form is Tae-bek.
My favorite black belt form is Tae-bek.
glad2bhere
Master Black Belt
Dear Faye:
For Westerners the easiest way to think of "inside" and "outside" is to imagine those techniques accomplished within the limits of your own sillouette ("inside") and those techniques which extend beyond ones' own sillouette ("outside") during execution. This is also one (of the many) interpretations placed on the Chinese allusions of "Internal" and "External" Boxing. In Pinan #3 the tight, rapid blocking movements would be considered "inside" techniques. There is also quite a dispute as to whether the rapid exchanges in Naifanchi 1 & 2 were suppose to extend up beside the head as they are often seen or if they were suppose to be executed tightly in front of the body.
At the risk of putting too fine a point on this consider the typical western boxing methods in which a person is attempting to negotiate a partners defenses. Now consider another kind of training where a person learns techniques for when they find themselves too close to the partner, say, in a clinch. "Outside techniques" vs "Inside techniques". FWIW.
BTW: In incorporating material into his Boxing Canon for training his troops, Gen Qi was particularly careful to include at least a few "inside techniques" though he didn't hold that close-quarters h2h had any real place on the battlefield.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
For Westerners the easiest way to think of "inside" and "outside" is to imagine those techniques accomplished within the limits of your own sillouette ("inside") and those techniques which extend beyond ones' own sillouette ("outside") during execution. This is also one (of the many) interpretations placed on the Chinese allusions of "Internal" and "External" Boxing. In Pinan #3 the tight, rapid blocking movements would be considered "inside" techniques. There is also quite a dispute as to whether the rapid exchanges in Naifanchi 1 & 2 were suppose to extend up beside the head as they are often seen or if they were suppose to be executed tightly in front of the body.
At the risk of putting too fine a point on this consider the typical western boxing methods in which a person is attempting to negotiate a partners defenses. Now consider another kind of training where a person learns techniques for when they find themselves too close to the partner, say, in a clinch. "Outside techniques" vs "Inside techniques". FWIW.
BTW: In incorporating material into his Boxing Canon for training his troops, Gen Qi was particularly careful to include at least a few "inside techniques" though he didn't hold that close-quarters h2h had any real place on the battlefield.
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Zepp
Master of Arts
glad2bhere said:
The Naifanchi forms are also called Chul gi, right? We're taught to execute most of the moves more tightly in front of the body in that case.
Personally, I don't see Pyong an 3 as being a very internal form, but maybe that's because we practice it differently. But I have taken some practical applications from it. Faye, if you've got a question that you haven't had a chance to ask your instructor about Pyong an 3, feel free to ask me.
MichiganTKD
Master Black Belt
I've had the pleasure of practicing forms under Grandmaster Hae Man Park, which is almost like being at ground zero. In other words, from the man many of the forms came from. Anything you thought you knew about forms goes out the window when practicing with him, because you realize how little you really know. Even the little actions, the ones that seem inconsequential, have purposes that he will explain. You're left thinking "I never realized how much this form actually does."
Zepp, thank you so much. I've looked in the web site, since I'm really terrible at memorizing forms, it's good to have something to watch. When i look up pyang ahn forms, they are different from what we do in school, however, if I look it up under shotokan Heinan (spelling?), they are almost exactly the same.
E.g. in Pyang ahn 1: our knife blocks are not "downwards",
and then pyang ahn 2 the last 6 steps confused the heck out of me.
E.g. in Pyang ahn 1: our knife blocks are not "downwards",
and then pyang ahn 2 the last 6 steps confused the heck out of me.
A
Anna Bastiaans
Guest
We also teach Taeguk forms in our school. My favorites are Koryo (9) and Pyongwon (12), but when I didn't have my black belt yet, I liked 7 (chil-jang) very much. BTW, does anybody here participate in Form competitions? Would be happy to exchange tips and experiences 
Anna.
Anna.
N
NW Boiler
Guest
Being an ATA member..... the songahm forms are my bag. As far as remembering them goes, repetition repetition repetition.
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