Differences between MA/DT/SD/H2H/Etc...

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Indie12

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Quite a good question. I'd like to tackle it in pieces;



Yes. Regardless of the name used, they all derive from a martial art based theory.



Ideally, no. Realistically, yes.

Martial art is an all encompassing term theses days. Originally, a martial art was meant, in large part, for one thing....defeating an attacker in armed or unarmed personal combat. Yes, esoteric venues have been attached to it through the years such as sport, health, social interaction etc. But martial arts in-and-of-themselves are movements designed to cause injury and/or pain to another for self-preservation or to defeat an action. Nowadays however, martial arts may mean self-defense or it may mean twirling a glow in the dark 'numchuck' to music in order to compete for a trophy or ribbon. It may mean its the thing you do Mondays and Thursdays while Tuesdays and Fridays are reserved for bowling. Or it could mean, for some folks, a means of training to protect yourself in armed or unarmed combat. Ask 10 different 'martial artists' and you'll likely get 10 different answers.

Defensive Tactics (D.T.) is usually the term used in law enforcement. It is the term I/we use when we're teaching L.E. and Corrections academies. While used for self-protection, D.T. also covers techniques that can be used to transport or secure an individual. Terms such as 'bent wrist' or 'goose neck' are used as well as 'hammer lock' and 'pain compliance'. It is usually a VERY simple course. The techniques have sound principles that IF trained for consistently will often produce positive results. Unfortunately, the bulk of L.E. and Corrections doesn't routinely train with D.T. or firearms beyond the academy. The individual that goes on to take martial arts or advance D.T. (or shooting for that matter) are few and far between. Such advanced D.T. course include such programs as S.P.E.A.R. (SPontaneous Enabling Accelerated Response) by Tony Blauer, PCR (Physical Conflict Resolution) by Gen Good (Seal Team Six), Boatman's Edged Weapon Defense by the late Sir Peter Boatman or Israeli Instinctive Shooting and/or Israeli Urban Survival (Hisardut Krav Maga) by several former Israeli commandoes. I've taken the instructor course for each of these and they are, hands down, among the most hard-core D.T. combatives courses out there. I'd place them in the H2H section as well.

Self-Defense can be contained within the martial arts or D.T. sections. It could also be a short-term course designed for the civilian that doesn't take further education in the venue. Just as with D.T., it usually offers simple but effective methods of (usually) unarmed defense. If the person would train with such methods, at least periodically they would likely be well served for the majority of altercations they may find themselves in. If they don't....well we train to live and live to train is the old saying.

H2H is basically (usually) meant for military (or advanced L.E./Corrections team/individuals). More than self-defense, it could be termed self-offense just as easily. H2H often is doing something dynamic and terminal to someone as opposed to defensive movements designed to defeat an attacker. Fathers of modern H2H would include William Fairbairn, Pat 'Dermott' O'Neill, Col. Rex Applegate, Charles Nelson, Carl Cestari and others. Without trying to make a shameless plug for Martial Warrior, there are a collection of articles and videos in the SD section for anyone interested http://excoboard.com/martialwarrior/148250. H2H reading material would include 'Kill or be Killed' and 'Get Tough'. As an interesting note, and I've mentioned this before, Pat 'Dermott' O'Neill of WW2 combatives fame was at one time the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world. His WW2 H2H combatives teaching included NO Judo of any kind. No sporting elements went into its development. He was quite strict on that point.

H2H was trained quickly and trained hard. Often less than 24 hours of training. Yet it was all based on gross motor skill by rote to be retained in long term memory and highly usable under duress. It succeeded. There are cases such as the senior citizen (and former FSSF member) who took out an armed robber at a 7-11 based ONLY on what he learned from O'Neill back in WW2. As I said, retained in long term memory was the goal of the training. My step-father told me of a similar incident involving the town drunk who at one time was also a WW2 combatives trainer. Suffice it to say that no one picked on him after an incident.

Hope this may have been of some interest. If the OP doesn't mind, I'm going to put this on MW as well as it is really a good question and I don't want to have to retype my post.

Stay safe everyone :)

Good points! By all means please feel free to put it on your MW! :)
 

Tez3

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So I take it there's no apology? Oh, and as for "respectfully, productive and mature!!", I'd suggest no, personally. I don't consider accusations of stalking respectful, nor the lack of apology when the lack of base for such an accusation is pointed out, refusing to clarify what you're saying, trying to get things taken to PM when it's not needed, arbitrarily shutting down conversations because you don't understand what you're being asked, and then putting people on ignore rather than listen to them (or everyone else who say there was no personal attack nor any emotionally heated comments from my side) is hardly "productive", and as for "mature!!"? Nope, not really...



Works wonders how? There weren't any more answers from me, and all it means is that you can ignore my requests from previous posts...



Just to clarify, PMs do have a character limit, as well as there being a limit on the number of messages you can have, which is not the case for in thread posts. So, uh, nope. That argument has no merit. And that's not what the PM function is there for.



PMs and emails are for personal interaction between members so as not to detract from a thread, questions posed in thread to do with the thread itself should be answered in the thread itself. And you can't really get more thread related than someone asking the thread starter "What are you referring to here?"



The only insult was your reading of it, it was clarified a number of times that no insult was intended or implied. Perhaps that should have been noted while you protested and yelled (frequent exclamation marks, capitals etc are taken as "shouting" in most cases...) about what you misread in posts. For instance my asking for clarification of what you mean when you refer to "martial arts" as I found the OP to be too vague and lacking in detail, to have you respond "Did you read the OP? did it look like I put any details there!!"... uh, no, hence my asking for more details(?)...



Point it out. Seriously, point it out.



You do realize that noone else can see any disrespect towards you, yeah?



Er, yeah, hence the request for clarification... you know, to further conversation...

Oh, and if you're going to make such a big deal about putting "IN YOUR OPINION" there, how was my putting my opinion down, which you misinterpreted and immediately responded with "Negative", then continued to miss what I was saying, telling me that I was talking about something I wasn't, how is that being respectful of my opinion? Hmm.



The vagaries you gave, basically a stripped down version of the definitions I presented in my first post in this thread, is hardly you giving further details, hence my continued, and more specific request.



You're hardly dealing with someone new to debate, online or otherwise, when it comes to myself or the other members here, you know. And can you please point out where asking about the parameters of your categories is not related to the thread?

Honestly, you seem to have misunderstood, or misinterpreted the intent behind a comment, and gotten emotionally charged without present due cause, which has brought us to here. I know that you won't see this, but I'm kinda hoping that you're going to give in to that little "show post" button, and re-evaluate your actions and perception of my posts, as there really isn't anything that you're seeing. If not, there's not much hope for that apology, I suppose....

I'll leave it with you.


:uhyeah:
 

Danny T

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So I take it there's no apology? Oh, and as for "respectfully, productive and mature!!", I'd suggest no, personally. I don't consider accusations of stalking respectful, nor the lack of apology when the lack of base for such an accusation is pointed out, refusing to clarify what you're saying, trying to get things taken to PM when it's not needed, arbitrarily shutting down conversations because you don't understand what you're being asked, and then putting people on ignore rather than listen to them (or everyone else who say there was no personal attack nor any emotionally heated comments from my side) is hardly "productive", and as for "mature!!"? Nope, not really...



Works wonders how? There weren't any more answers from me, and all it means is that you can ignore my requests from previous posts...



Just to clarify, PMs do have a character limit, as well as there being a limit on the number of messages you can have, which is not the case for in thread posts. So, uh, nope. That argument has no merit. And that's not what the PM function is there for.



PMs and emails are for personal interaction between members so as not to detract from a thread, questions posed in thread to do with the thread itself should be answered in the thread itself. And you can't really get more thread related than someone asking the thread starter "What are you referring to here?"



The only insult was your reading of it, it was clarified a number of times that no insult was intended or implied. Perhaps that should have been noted while you protested and yelled (frequent exclamation marks, capitals etc are taken as "shouting" in most cases...) about what you misread in posts. For instance my asking for clarification of what you mean when you refer to "martial arts" as I found the OP to be too vague and lacking in detail, to have you respond "Did you read the OP? did it look like I put any details there!!"... uh, no, hence my asking for more details(?)...



Point it out. Seriously, point it out.



You do realize that noone else can see any disrespect towards you, yeah?



Er, yeah, hence the request for clarification... you know, to further conversation...

Oh, and if you're going to make such a big deal about putting "IN YOUR OPINION" there, how was my putting my opinion down, which you misinterpreted and immediately responded with "Negative", then continued to miss what I was saying, telling me that I was talking about something I wasn't, how is that being respectful of my opinion? Hmm.



The vagaries you gave, basically a stripped down version of the definitions I presented in my first post in this thread, is hardly you giving further details, hence my continued, and more specific request.



You're hardly dealing with someone new to debate, online or otherwise, when it comes to myself or the other members here, you know. And can you please point out where asking about the parameters of your categories is not related to the thread?

Honestly, you seem to have misunderstood, or misinterpreted the intent behind a comment, and gotten emotionally charged without present due cause, which has brought us to here. I know that you won't see this, but I'm kinda hoping that you're going to give in to that little "show post" button, and re-evaluate your actions and perception of my posts, as there really isn't anything that you're seeing. If not, there's not much hope for that apology, I suppose....

I'll leave it with you.


Quite unfortunate and disappointing.
 

Grenadier

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Administrator's note:

Thread closed. If you wish to discuss the original topic, please do so in a new thread.


-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator
 
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