Developing a pro-active mindset

[Ceicei]

This post came from another thread, http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51772, and I thought it would be good to discuss a certain point.

It's also something that, as we've touched on before in similar threads, shows that those who grew up in a certain era have what I would consider to be a more pro-active mindset than the subtly-disempowered, litigation-fearing, generations that have come since.

Can that pro-active mindset be developed? How can a person who is "subtly-disempowered and litigation-fearing" learn a different mindset? It almost seemed that the other threads that Sukerkin is referring to are often about those who have served in the military or law enforcement or had different societal expectations.

What are those societal expectations? Can we bring these back?

- Ceicei

 

[Rich Parsons]

Growing up in conflict and or doing something that puts one into conflict can gain someone the pro-active mindset.

Some fall apart.
Some do what they have to to survive and then walk away and never go back or put themselves in a place to be there again.
Some learn to help others or to help society.
Some learn that there are weak people out there that they can pray upon.

 

[Sukerkin]

I agree, Rich that that is one way a person can develop the general attitude that I was touching on.

However, it can be as simple as the way you are brought up too. It might sound a little 'Boy Scout' but my father, in addition to his sterling duties as a disciplinarian (I never got away with anything !) taught me to be ready to put others before myself. Having two younger sisters helped in this regard too :lol:.

On one hand this has some superficial outcomes. For example, I am (or like to consider myself to be) very polite in social situations, especially crowded ones. By polite I don't just mean verbally but also in terms of making way for people, not blocking exit routes etc. I will also offer my help to someone who is obviously struggling to lift or carry something or is having trouble with their car et al.

The more serious side of this is that that 'mindset' carries through to more dangerous situations (tho' I have to rein this in nowadays because of my practically useless (in fighting terms) right arm).

We've had a few "What would you do if ... ?" threads recently and I haven't contributed to them because others have already given the answers I would've i.e. in nearly all circumstances, if I had a chance to help then I would.

I suppose, at the root, what we're talking about can be encapsulated by saying that the pro-active mindset has an element of not allowing fear of consequences to prevent you from acting.

That can either come about either by traumatic events, as Rich noted above, or by other forms of social conditioning.

 

[Ceicei]

Maybe there is a clue that may be related to this topic. I saw this link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,287053,00.html) from the other MartialTalk thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51761):

The quote below came from the article in the first link:

North said passing boot camp requires recruits to embody 10 major attributes of dependability, courage, decisiveness, endurance, initiative, integrity, judgment, proficiency, selflessness and loyalty.

Would having these attributes help strengthen the pro-active mindset by worrying less about the consequences if the action is determined to be the right thing?


- Ceicei

 

[still learning]

Hello, Anyone can if they want too!

NOW for a different point to look at: Take the most passive, shy, quiet person, or any non-violent person.....

IF you can make these people....ANGEY, MAD, enough...they will fight back...speak their minds out loud...PUSH a person hard enough....will bring out a different person.

In our training (most teachers do this) is to teach to switch you mode of thinking to (fighting back/escaping).

To be able to turn your mind to defend one self, to become pro-active...meaning to fighting back to survive...finding a way to end the attack and to escape unharm if possible.

Anyone can become pro-active....for some people means lots of practice and training...for some is it more natural.........Aloha

 

[Ceicei]

Still learning,

Yes, and no regarding your comments. To a great extent I agree. People can be prodded to fight if or when the need arises. However, I am trying to get at the concept how people can *willingly fight* in spite of the possible consequences that may happen afterwards.

I'm thinking of different situations I've read about in news papers over the past few years. Some of these situations show the people didn't fight back and paid a great price with their lives. There are others that did fight back and died anyway. There are yet other situations that show some fighting back and surviving.

I've talked to some people about their thoughts regarding self defense (in general). Some mention their reason for not training in martial arts or with any type of armed training is "it's too violent. I don't want a lawsuit or to cause anyone to die". Some say, "if we are peaceable, people will not have a need to do harm to others." Others say that it is the "responsibility of law enforcement to deal with crime and they will not have to worry about the need to protect themselves. Just call 911."

I've even had some of my instructors tell me a certain technique or method of training is altered or tamed down because of "liability issues". Instructors from 15-20 years ago didn't say this. Instructors within the past 10 years did...so this concern appears to be a relatively recent change.

To clarify my point is a situation that confused me (I can't recall where or when this occurred, but I suppose a search may bring this up as it was a fairly big story that were on the news at the time):

A group of people were taken hostage and told to kneel down. The attacker just killed them one by one and none of them fought back.

Why didn't they fight back? I wonder what went through their minds knowing they would be next. What stopped them from not fighting back if the opportunity was there? If not as an individual, why not as a group?

Anyway, this thread is not whether a person could or is able to fight, but to try to ferret out what would make a person willing to fight instead of hesitating during a confrontation (a pause or delay that could be disastrous) because of a concern or worry about the aftermath?

Is the mindset to be willing to forge ahead more of an attitude thing that came from the way people thought years ago or something else?

- Ceicei

 

[Rich Parsons]

Still learning,

Yes, and no regarding your comments. To a great extent I agree. People can be prodded to fight if or when the need arises. However, I am trying to get at the concept how people can *willingly fight* in spite of the possible consequences that may happen afterwards.

I'm thinking of different situations I've read about in news papers over the past few years. Some of these situations show the people didn't fight back and paid a great price with their lives. There are others that did fight back and died anyway. There are yet other situations that show some fighting back and surviving.

I've talked to some people about their thoughts regarding self defense (in general). Some mention their reason for not training in martial arts or with any type of armed training is "it's too violent. I don't want a lawsuit or to cause anyone to die". Some say, "if we are peaceable, people will not have a need to do harm to others." Others say that it is the "responsibility of law enforcement to deal with crime and they will not have to worry about the need to protect themselves. Just call 911."

I've even had some of my instructors tell me a certain technique or method of training is altered or tamed down because of "liability issues". Instructors from 15-20 years ago didn't say this. Instructors within the past 10 years did...so this concern appears to be a relatively recent change.

To clarify my point is a situation that confused me (I can't recall where or when this occurred, but I suppose a search may bring this up as it was a fairly big story that were on the news at the time): Why didn't they fight back? I wonder what went through their minds knowing they would be next. What stopped them from not fighting back if the opportunity was there? If not as an individual, why not as a group?

Anyway, this thread is not whether a person could or is able to fight, but to try to ferret out what would make a person willing to fight instead of hesitating during a confrontation (a pause or delay that could be disastrous) because of a concern or worry about the aftermath?

Is the mindset to be willing to forge ahead more of an attitude thing that came from the way people thought years ago or something else?

- Ceicei

I also remember a guy who stopped in the left hand lane turning into the CIA and then just stepped out and walked back and shot the people in the car behind him, then continued on and on and on.

Why did they not just back up into the car behind them and run him over?

Why did they not jump into the passenger seat and try to escape?

No they all sat there and just watched the one in front of them get shot and then watch him walk up and shoot them.

 

[kidswarrior]

I agree, Rich that that is one way a person can develop the general attitude that I was touching on.

However, it can be as simple as the way you are brought up too. It might sound a little 'Boy Scout' but my father, in addition to his sterling duties as a disciplinarian (I never got away with anything !) taught me to be ready to put others before myself. Having two younger sisters helped in this regard too :lol:.

On one hand this has some superficial outcomes. For example, I am (or like to consider myself to be) very polite in social situations, especially crowded ones. By polite I don't just mean verbally but also in terms of making way for people, not blocking exit routes etc. I will also offer my help to someone who is obviously struggling to lift or carry something or is having trouble with their car et al.

The more serious side of this is that that 'mindset' carries through to more dangerous situations (tho' I have to rein this in nowadays because of my practically useless (in fighting terms) right arm).

We've had a few "What would you do if ... ?" threads recently and I haven't contributed to them because others have already given the answers I would've i.e. in nearly all circumstances, if I had a chance to help then I would.

I suppose, at the root, what we're talking about can be encapsulated by saying that the pro-active mindset has an element of not allowing fear of consequences to prevent you from acting.

That can either come about either by traumatic events, as Rich noted above, or by other forms of social conditioning.

Agree with everything Suke has said. I don't talk about it, though, because it usually lands me in hot water with my daughter, her friends--heck, her whole generation. So that's all I'm going to say. Except to reference a similar point by John Bishop here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34646&highlight=kajukenbo+50s+60s+bishop

Re: Semper Fi and all that, tho, will just say that as an old sailor I've served with a few thousand marines; some I've found a lot better than the press, some not so much. In other words, good and bad in everything. So please don't glorify one branch at the expense of my Navy. As for learning all those 10 things in boot camp, hmmm.... I think everyone's experience is different---even the guys in my Boot Company would remember it differently from one another.

 

[kidswarrior]

I also remember a guy who stopped in the left hand lane turning into the CIA and then just stepped out and walked back and shot the people in the car behind him, then continued on and on and on.

Why did they not just back up into the car behind them and run him over?

Why did they not jump into the passenger seat and try to escape?

No they all sat there and just watched the one in front of them get shot and then watch him walk up and shoot them.

Great example Rich. I'm very fond of having the car between me and a lunatic like this, and if ever deadly force were justified. :mst: But I can see the point some are making in the thread, too, if you've never been there/done that with some heavy duty stuff, could be hard to act when the time comes.

 

[Ceicei]

Agree with everything Suke has said. I don't talk about it, though, because it usually lands me in hot water with my daughter, her friends--heck, her whole generation. So that's all I'm going to say. Except to reference a similar point by John Bishop here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34646&highlight=kajukenbo+50s+60s+bishop

In referring to your link according to John Bishop's comment:

I think there is a tremendous differance in the young men and boys entering dojo's now, then there was in the 50's - 70's.
When I was growing up in the 50's -60's, after school fights were a weekly occurance. Not really vicious. But good old boxing matches to let off some steam and vent a little anger. Maybe that's why anger didn't build up to the point of school shootings back then. And most of the times the combatants were friends again the next day.
Boxing was actually a high school sport in the California of the 50's-60's. And just about every boy back then played tackle football every chance they got. Even after the parents would complain to the school officials about all the torn clothes, we'd find a isolated part of the school ground to play tackle, and change to "touch" when some teacher would come by.
Boys grew up knowing what it was like to hit and get hit. I've never been hit in the martial arts, or in my 32 years as a cop, as hard as I was hit when I was a high school fullback. So contact in the martial arts was never a issue with me and most of the guys I trained with.
Now days many high schools struggle to recruit enough boys to field a good football team. And boxing teams are a thing of the past. And now days boys earn "academic" letters.
I can't believe the number of 20-30 year old male students I get who tell me that they have never been in a fight in their lives!
And then there are the 10 year old students who can't do 10 good push ups because the heaviest thing they ever pick up is a gameboy.
So yes, as a Kajukenbo instructor it's my obligation to prepare these students for the unlikely occassion when they may have to actually fight for real.
They need to experience realistic fighting situations in a controlled setting. They don't have to break bones, rupture kidneys, or dislocate joints. But they have to learn how to handle contact without it hindering their ability to effectively respond back.
Martial arts is like insurance, the more you pay (in sweat and pain), the more insurance you get. Even though you hope you never have to use it.

You didn't want to say directly what your point was and referred to John Bishop's comments to be similar to your thought. Am I to hazard a guess that your point here is saying there are benefits to having a good fight or at least that aggression can be a good thing when put in a controlled (or permitted) environment?

Society today seem to encourage passivity and dependence upon others to take care of problems. That type of attitude will likely be our downfall if allowed to continue. Can we reverse the tide?

Perhaps our redeeming moment for society is an increase of encouragement for getting into more physical activities. Hopefully, the restrictions that used to be placed on certain activities will be lifted (such as with dodgeball and playground tag).

- Ceicei

 

[kidswarrior]

In referring to your link according to John Bishop's comment:
So is your point here saying there are benefits to having a good fight or at least that aggression can be a good thing when put in a controlled (or at least permitted) environment?

In a word, yes. In the days Prof Bishop was speaking of, first there were almost no fights at school--the coaches would come and knock the guys' heads together and then make their parents come to the school (s.th. I never wanted! To bring shame on my family was unthinkable). So, we'd take it off campus after school, or at lunch. But then, no matter how ugly it got, there was usually a clear winner and clear loser, and when one guy said Enough, it was over. No one's five friends jumped in, no weapons appeared, the cops didn't bother to stop--and definitely no one got a ticket or sued. It was just a fight. And even the gangs that we might encounter occasionally from East LA weren't into weapons. There was still a code of honor.

Kids today don't have that option for all the possibilities I mentioned, plus the possibility of later retaliation. Today I'd have been locked up in juvenile hall several times over for what we took for granted. But then, we were self-regulating, too. Very seldom was there any real injury beyond a broken tooth or nose, or maybe an arm. And parents saw those things as normal.

Society today seem to encourage passivity or dependence upon others to take care of problems. That type of attitude will likely be our downfall if allowed to continue.

Perhaps our redeeming moment for society is an increase of encouragement for getting into more physical activities. Hopefully, the restrictions that used to be placed on certain activities will be lifted (such as with dodgeball and playground tag).
- Ceicei

I hope you're right, Ceicei.

 

[Sukerkin]

The Rep Gnomes are on Gate Duty again, Kds .

I just wanted to say that your posts above 'ring true' with me too, most especially how fighting was more prevelent in the time of my (our) youth but the violence we see today was not.

I was glad to see someone make that point as, not only does it dispel my fears that I had a rose-tinted view of the past, but I think it is highly relevant to the topic. It is part of the subtle disempowerment I was talking about in the thread from which this branched.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think there is a tremendous differance in the young men and boys entering dojo's now, then there was in the 50's - 70's.
When I was growing up in the 50's -60's, after school fights were a weekly occurance. Not really vicious. But good old boxing matches to let off some steam and vent a little anger. Maybe that's why anger didn't build up to the point of school shootings back then. And most of the times the combatants were friends again the next day.
Boxing was actually a high school sport in the California of the 50's-60's. And just about every boy back then played tackle football every chance they got. Even after the parents would complain to the school officials about all the torn clothes, we'd find a isolated part of the school ground to play tackle, and change to "touch" when some teacher would come by.
Boys grew up knowing what it was like to hit and get hit. I've never been hit in the martial arts, or in my 32 years as a cop, as hard as I was hit when I was a high school fullback. So contact in the martial arts was never a issue with me and most of the guys I trained with.
Now days many high schools struggle to recruit enough boys to field a good football team. And boxing teams are a thing of the past. And now days boys earn "academic" letters.
I can't believe the number of 20-30 year old male students I get who tell me that they have never been in a fight in their lives!
And then there are the 10 year old students who can't do 10 good push ups because the heaviest thing they ever pick up is a gameboy.
So yes, as a Kajukenbo instructor it's my obligation to prepare these students for the unlikely occassion when they may have to actually fight for real.
They need to experience realistic fighting situations in a controlled setting. They don't have to break bones, rupture kidneys, or dislocate joints. But they have to learn how to handle contact without it hindering their ability to effectively respond back.
Martial arts is like insurance, the more you pay (in sweat and pain), the more insurance you get. Even though you hope you never have to use it.

I have issues understanding how some people I know who are not only 20 or 30 but also in their 40's who have never been in a fight or know what it is to get hit. These are engineers raised in upper middle class homes and did not play sports.

I agree when I was a kid in the 70's we played tackle football without pads. We all thought it was fun. Actually the only time I can remember being truly knocked out was playing touch football in high school gym that was actually tackle.

I have a friend who is a police officer. He once told me that he liked to spar me. I was confused and asked for specifics. He stated that when I hit him at 50% he felt like I was beating on him and that he had never been hit that hard even by the bad guys on the street who have swung on him.

In referring to your link according to John Bishop's comment:
You didn't want to say directly what your point was and referred to John Bishop's comments to be similar to your thought. Am I to hazard a guess that your point here is saying there are benefits to having a good fight or at least that aggression can be a good thing when put in a controlled (or permitted) environment?

Society today seem to encourage passivity and dependence upon others to take care of problems. That type of attitude will likely be our downfall if allowed to continue. Can we reverse the tide?

Perhaps our redeeming moment for society is an increase of encouragement for getting into more physical activities. Hopefully, the restrictions that used to be placed on certain activities will be lifted (such as with dodgeball and playground tag).

- Ceicei

Today we cannot go on our bikes without helmets and one should also wear elbow pads and wrist supports as well. This also goes for roller blading and skate boarding.

Today people all want someone else to take care of them as you stated. I call it the entitlement state of mind. Either society owes them or will take care of them. Or some company owes and should take care of them because this said company had hired their grandfather or father years before. Even if the other family members did not still work there, they feel like they are owed. The last are from those in middle and upper middle and upper class homes who believe their parents will take care of them and owe them that. Even though they be in their mid to late 20's or even 30's.

And yes I believe it will be a mjor factor to a downfall. Other countries want to work. Other contries want to have what other have. If they cannot get it one way they might go for it another. If there is no one around to defend them as they believe or have been trained or taught is what society or themsleves want, then they will loose what they have. Or our society will loose what we have.

As to controlled conflicts. I remember young girls who would hate each other for years and attack the other via rumors and insults. While the boys would hit each other and then within a few days would be playing football or baseball or what have you again.

Even this week I had to deal with a "man" at work. He gets upset and raises his voice and then gets all defensive and then after he says what he wants he leaves and walks away. He does not try to resolve the issue. He you are so bold as to raise your voice back, and I do not mean yelling, but just raise your voice back he will raise his more and say he dos not have to take this and walk away. He has been told he does not have to take actions form others but he is not responsible for hsi own actions that he finds so offensive. In the past a simple shouting match or even a strike or two would have put this at an end. But he has never known such an environment so his expectations are that everyone will accomadate him.


In my opinion people need to take responsibility for their actions. Not to have an entitlement mentality or state of mind. They need to understand that sometimes a minor conflict is better than hatred that grows over time.

 

[kidswarrior]

The Rep Gnomes are on Gate Duty again, Kds .

It's enough to know we're on the same page.

I just wanted to say that your posts above 'ring true' with me too, most especially how fighting was more prevelent in the time of my (our) youth but the violence we see today was not.

I was glad to see someone make that point as, not only does it dispel my fears that I had a rose-tinted view of the past, but I think it is highly relevant to the topic. It is part of the subtle disempowerment I was talking about in the thread from which this branched.

Guess I'll have to go find that thread now. :ultracool

 

[kidswarrior]

I have a friend who is a police officer. He once told me that he liked to spar me. I was confused and asked for specifics. He stated that when I hit him at 50% he felt like I was beating on him and that he had never been hit that hard even by the bad guys on the street who have swung on him.

Yup. In Kung Fu San Soo we don't have sparring, per se, but a simulated attack and free-style response (not preset techniques)--our form of sparring (but no gear, and we use the street moves we actually practice, not a kickboxing format). We go about 50% speed and 33% power, and I've been hurt more by my friends in these workouts than by many 'bad dudes' whether in other arts, or on the street.

Today people all want someone else to take care of them as you stated. I call it the entitlement state of mind. Either society owes them or will take care of them.

As to controlled conflicts. I remember young girls who would hate each other for years and attack the other via rumors and insults. While the boys would hit each other and then within a few days would be playing football or baseball or what have you again.

A great point, Rich. have seen this myself hundreds of times (my work, ya know)

Even this week I had to deal with a "man" at work. He gets upset and raises his voice and then gets all defensive and then after he says what he wants he leaves and walks away. He does not try to resolve the issue. He you are so bold as to raise your voice back, and I do not mean yelling, but just raise your voice back he will raise his more and say he dos not have to take this and walk away. He has been told he does not have to take actions form others but he is not responsible for hsi own actions that he finds so offensive. In the past a simple shouting match or even a strike or two would have put this at an end. But he has never known such an environment so his expectations are that everyone will accomadate him.

This is why I don't argue with anyone, for a long time now. At work, choose my battles; and in public if someone wants to challenge me (rare--guess I wear all that street stuff, or something ) I either just let it go (Sorry, thought you meant something else), or wait for them to make a move so I can demolish them. No one's taken the first shot since 1986, so I guess it works.

 

[BudoTiger]

i agree with everything Suke and kidswarrior said. i think a perfect recent example of this would be the terrorist attacks on 9/11. on 3 of the 4 jets hijacked no one tried to fight back. they were told that as long as they listened and did what they were told they would be ok. we all know what happened. the 4th plane upon hearing what happened with the other 3 decided they had to try and stop the hijackers. they fought back. altho the hijackers crashed the plane and the passengers lost their lives, they also prevented even more people from losing their lives by causing the hijackers to put the plane down in an empty field.

other good recent examples are the shootings at va tech. there are examples all around of us people beleivenig "if i don't fight back i'll be ok".

as a father and a husband, and i guess it comes partly from my dad raising me like Suke's father did, i refuse to stand by and let people hurt others. i have a tattoo that says "i live and die for those i love" and i live by those words. i hate seeing people in trouble of any kind and will go out of my way to help them as best i can to the point my wife and i have been taken advantage of by people we thought were friends. even by family that we tried to help.

no matter what i think you have to do what you feel is right for you no matter the consequences. i'm willing to risk being sued, attacked, what ever to protect my family, friends, and people i care about. even someone i don't know if i think i can help i will do my best.

 

[Kacey]

This post came from another thread, http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51772, and I thought it would be good to discuss a certain point.

It's a great topic, and I'd have answered sooner, but I've thinking about my answer.

Can that pro-active mindset be developed? How can a person who is "subtly-disempowered and litigation-fearing" learn a different mindset? It almost seemed that the other threads that Sukerkin is referring to are often about those who have served in the military or law enforcement or had different societal expectations.

What are those societal expectations? Can we bring these back?

- Ceicei

I think that Sukerkin and kidswarrior have covered a great deal of it. There used to be much less litigation and much more "working it out"; one of the assistant principals at my middle school (an alum, actually) remembers when he was in middle school 25+ years ago, when boys who had a problem with each other were taken to the gym, given boxing gloves, and turned loose (supervised by the assistant principal) for a set length of time - after that, it was over. If the problem continued, then parents were called and further action, if needed, was taken.

That could never happen today - in fact, parents call the school in droves on Monday mornings about things that happened between students in the neighborhood over the weekend, wanting to know what the school is going to do about it, because the parents don't want to take direct action themselves, lest it backfire on them - better the school should be the bad guy in such issues.

The sense of entitlement that the so-called "me" generation has passed down to their children is a big part of the problem - everyone wants to get what they want, without consequence, while others do the dirty work. An example: about 10 years ago, a woman I used to know had 2 sons; the older was being courted by the armed forces to enlist for the college benefits - and she wouldn't let him, because we might go to war, and heaven forbid her son should go to war - in contrast to WWII and earlier wars, where teenage boys were lying about their age to get into the armed forces to fight for their country.

There is a difference between reasonable caution and unreasonable fear of a situation - while I agree that some things are overdone, hopefully, the pendulum of public opinion will swing back from the totalitarian-type restrictions passed into law, without going all the way to an anarchistic extreme at the other end.

The only way I can see to bring the societal expectations for self-reliance - and thus reverse the current trend - is to set an example. Stand up for others when the situation warrants; support laws against "nuisance" legislation; discuss your concerns with others who agree and disagree, and find out why - the key to causing change is knowing why the attitude exists, and while I think this thread has discussed some very good points, there are always more viewpoints to learn about.

 

[kidswarrior]

It's a great topic, and I'd have answered sooner, but I've thinking about my answer.



I think that Sukerkin and kidswarrior have covered a great deal of it. There used to be much less litigation and much more "working it out"; one of the assistant principals at my middle school (an alum, actually) remembers when he was in middle school 25+ years ago, when boys who had a problem with each other were taken to the gym, given boxing gloves, and turned loose (supervised by the assistant principal) for a set length of time - after that, it was over. If the problem continued, then parents were called and further action, if needed, was taken.

That could never happen today - in fact, parents call the school in droves on Monday mornings about things that happened between students in the neighborhood over the weekend, wanting to know what the school is going to do about it, because the parents don't want to take direct action themselves, lest it backfire on them - better the school should be the bad guy in such issues.

The sense of entitlement that the so-called "me" generation has passed down to their children is a big part of the problem - everyone wants to get what they want, without consequence, while others do the dirty work. An example: about 10 years ago, a woman I used to know had 2 sons; the older was being courted by the armed forces to enlist for the college benefits - and she wouldn't let him, because we might go to war, and heaven forbid her son should go to war - in contrast to WWII and earlier wars, where teenage boys were lying about their age to get into the armed forces to fight for their country.

There is a difference between reasonable caution and unreasonable fear of a situation - while I agree that some things are overdone, hopefully, the pendulum of public opinion will swing back from the totalitarian-type restrictions passed into law, without going all the way to an anarchistic extreme at the other end.

The only way I can see to bring the societal expectations for self-reliance - and thus reverse the current trend - is to set an example. Stand up for others when the situation warrants; support laws against "nuisance" legislation; discuss your concerns with others who agree and disagree, and find out why - the key to causing change is knowing why the attitude exists, and while I think this thread has discussed some very good points, there are always more viewpoints to learn about.

Kacey, I wish you'd been one of my teachers!

 

[Kacey]

Kacey, I wish you'd been one of my teachers!

Thanks, I really appreciate that. :asian:

We now return you to our regular thread, already in progress.

 

[Hawke]

In psychology there is a concept known as diffusion of responsibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility

A familiar story of Kitty Genovese, a New York woman, was stabbed to death near her house. More than 30 of Genovese's neighbors heard her screaming for help for approxiately a half hour, yet no one helped her, each thinking that somebody else eventually would.

After learning this story back in college I attempt to take a proactive approach when people need assistance (breaking up fights, calling 911, or watching out for my neighbors).

I am currently watching Kung Fu the Lengend Continues. I cannot imagine Kwai Chang Caine just standing there when people around him need help.