Defense for yourself vs. defense for others

[Kung Fu Wang]

In self-defense, we have talked about "escape", "de-escalation", "avoid fighting", ... . Sometime you can run, not to get involved, ... but should you? Will you risk your life to save others?

The following clip is a true story. 2 guys raped the female bus driver. 1 guy tried to help and got cut. The whole bus full passengers just watched, nobody else wanted to get involved. Later on the female bus driver crashed the bus, killed everybody in the bus include herself.

What's your opinion about this clip?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In self-defense, we have talked about "escape", "de-escalation", "avoid fighting", ... . Sometime you can run, not to get involved, ... but should you? Will you risk your life to save others?

You are asking a moral question, not a self-defense question. Do you understand the difference?

Self-defense is self-describing. It is defense of self. Not others. Otherwise, it would be called just 'defense'.

One might extend the definition slightly to include defense of family, loved ones, even those whom you are with. But a bus full of passengers? In what way is that self-defense?

Now, having said that; I certainly hope I would have the courage to stand up to aggression like the man who got cut in your video.

In the USA, we have the example of the people who fought back against the hijackers of the doomed airplane on 9/11.

United Airlines Flight 93 - Wikipedia

We also have the recollection of the supposed story of Kitty Genovese, which was the opposite, more like the passengers on the bus in your video.

Murder of Kitty Genovese - Wikipedia

The following clip is a true story. 2 guys raped the female bus driver. 1 guy tried to help and got cut. The whole bus full passengers just watched, nobody else wanted to get involved. Later on the female bus driver crashed the bus, killed everybody in the bus include herself.

I don't know if it is a true story or not. It's in Chinese, right? I don't speak Chinese. I got the idea, though.

What's your opinion about this clip?

My opinion is that there are some things worth fighting for, even worth dying for. I should know; I served in the US Marine Corps, I carried an M16 for my country. I volunteered. If I had been ordered to fight, I would have fought. If it had led to my death, I was willing to pay that price. What more do you want of me?

I also believe that macho posturing is stupid. There are far too many people who like to spout off about 'dying on their feet' versus 'living on their knees'. Too many people who refuse to see life as a series of choices and gradations, where very little is truly black and white. To them, you either fight at the drop of a hat, at the slightest insult, or you are an abject coward, who snivels and pleads for your life. No in-between. Fortunately, most such idiots are simply poseurs. I doubt they've even been in a real fight in their lives, they live Walter Mitty dreams and think themselves manly. Whatever. I suffer such fools not gladly, to be quite honest.

With regard to self-defense and the defense of others, I will say this - there is a reason that the flight attendant on airplanes tells you to put your own oxygen mask on before assisting others. It's because if you do not look to your own defense first, you are dead and of no use to anyone.

We speak of the shame of running away and leaving our wife to be raped (yes, I read that in the last thread), but it is seldom that simple. And assuming it was, we stand there and become a murder victim; well we won't be helping our wife anymore, will we? She'll still be raped (in that absolutist, black-and-white scenario) but now we will be unable to assist her in any way - including assisting her with her recovery later on. So now she'll be raped and living life without a husband as well. All of the sake of not seeming to be a coward. Sounds brilliant.

 

[Ironbear24]

I once helped a woman getting beat up by what I thought was her abusive boyfriend. He even (verbally) threatened her with a screwdriver. I kicked his *** and next thing I know the woman sucker punched me from behind then I had to fight both. Lucky for me police stopped everything but if they had not who knows what would have happened.

Playing hero is not always a good idea or even plausible. The cop then lectured me about how I should have just called the cops and done nothing. I didn't argue with him but was very much in shock that what I did was considered "the bad choice."

We are so used to hearing about people being heroic and being praised for it but most of that stuff is all just stories. In the case of the bus I would have done something, that's not a place you can just call the cops and expect to appear quickly.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Double post

 

[Kickboxer101]

Honestly no I wouldn't get involved I'd call the police straight away but it's to risky to get involved you getting involved could make things worse for the other person as well and you never if the guys got a knife or a gun or a group of mates round the corner. If it was family then yeah sure but not for a stranger because the stranger may turn violent to you as well and you just don't know the circumstances

 

[Paul_D]

Will you risk your life to save others?

It’s difficult to give a finite yes or no answer as each circumstance is different, but as a general rule no. There are numerous accounts of people interfering with arguments between men and women in the street , only for the woman to then turn on the person trying to help her.

So if it’s stranger I’m not putting myself at risk, at heartless as that may sound. The exception would be if the victim was a child, but like I said, every situation is different.

It's in Chinese, right? I don't speak Chinese.

No, it's in Mandarin.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I once helped a woman getting beat up by what I thought was her abusive boyfriend. He even (verbally) threatened her with a screwdriver. I kicked his *** and next thing I know the woman sucker punched me from behind then I had to fight both. Lucky for me police stopped everything but if they had not who knows what would have happened.

Playing hero is not always a good idea or even plausible. The cop then lectured me about how I should have just called the cops and done nothing. I didn't argue with him but was very much in shock that what I did was considered "the bad choice."

We are so used to hearing about people being heroic and being praised for it but most of that stuff is all just stories. In the case of the bus I would have done something, that's not a place you can just call the cops and expect to appear quickly.

For what it may be worth, domestic disturbances are typically the most dangerous calls that law enforcement officers face. It is more common than you realize for a person to call 911, demand that the police take the other person away, a fight ensues, and then the person who called 911 to begin with jumps on the cop for taking away their partner.

People, in general, are frightened, dangerous animals when stressed. Remember that. They do not make logical decisions and they don't care if they hurt or kill you.

Another reason that cops never let people in a domestic disturbance get into the kitchen. That's where the knives are.

 

[MI_martialist]

This is why self defense is selfish. Personal Protection is a more appropriate term...one that we use in the United States Martial Tactical Association and Martial Sciences International. And, yes, I will protect what is personal to me!!

 

[marques]

Will you risk your life to save others?

It depends on the risk, and it depends on the 'others'. (Low risk + "low others" and I will be observing, at maximum).
And I guess in the case of rape, for instance, I will not make an intelligent choice...

 

[Midnight-shadow]

For what it may be worth, domestic disturbances are typically the most dangerous calls that law enforcement officers face. It is more common than you realize for a person to call 911, demand that the police take the other person away, a fight ensues, and then the person who called 911 to begin with jumps on the cop for taking away their partner.

People, in general, are frightened, dangerous animals when stressed. Remember that. They do not make logical decisions and they don't care if they hurt or kill you.

Another reason that cops never let people in a domestic disturbance get into the kitchen. That's where the knives are.

That's why the police use trained dogs to aid them with domestics. Even a guy armed with a knife is unlikely to want to tangle with a 35lb German Shepherd. More often than not as soon as the dog appears, the aggressor surrenders. And if they don't, the dog is released, grabs their arm and pulls them to the floor where the officers can pin them down.

(skip to 21:10)

As to the bus situation, part of the problem is the limited space. Even if 3-4 or even all the bus passengers stood up to the men, they would just get in each other's way in the confined space, where a knife is especially deadly if the person wielding it knows what they were doing. And quite frankly, your life is worth more than some money. That said, what they could have done is as soon as the thugs took the woman out of the bus into the open, if all the bus passengers came out too they could surround the thugs and use their numbers advantage. Then again, we have no idea about what any of the people are capable of.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have no problem with jumping in to save someone. Much of that decision is based on how severe the trouble is. Things like rape ranks high on my list of "I need to do something"

A lover's fight I may just walk away from unless I see that it's about to get violent. I'm not sure I could recover if I watched a person get beat in the face, then die because I didn't offer to try to do something. If my efforts fail but the person still dies, I can live with that. I think about my own family and how I would react. I wouldn't be angry at someone who tried to save my family member, even if it was to throw a drink at the attacker. But to just stand there and do nothing, that's unforgivable. For me personally. I couldn't just stand by if I'm in a position to do something.

Does this mean that I have to get into a fight? of course not. But I don't have to just stand still and look. If these animals can do something then there's no excuse for use not to do something as simple as call for help, or call the police or get involved in some shape or form.

But like Bill said. This is a moral question and not everyone has the same moral values.

I don't know if it is a true story or not

It's a true story. It feels like we have had this conversation before.

I once helped a woman getting beat up by what I thought was her abusive boyfriend. He even (verbally) threatened her with a screwdriver. I kicked his *** and next thing I know the woman sucker punched me from behind then I had to fight both.

like I've said before. you have an interesting life lol.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is why self defense is selfish. Personal Protection is a more appropriate term...one that we use in the United States Martial Tactical Association and Martial Sciences International. And, yes, I will protect what is personal to me!!

Survival is an instinct, and yes, survival is selfish. That doesn't mean it is right - that means it is built in to us as it is all animals.

 

[Buka]

I have always suffered from the Lone Ranger Complex. The majority of incidents I've been involved in (as a civilian) have been over somebody bothering somebody else. Could never seem to help myself. Don't even try any more.

I ain't watching that bus clip, though. Too nice a day for that. Had I been on that bus I would have been armed, I was always armed. Would have been very careful not to kill them, though. Small of the back, smack dab in the middle, small calibre. F em', Karma's a *****. No soup for you!

 

[kuniggety]

No, it's in Mandarin.

Not to derail, but Mandarin is Chinese. It's the "official" Chinese language and the most dominantly spoken in Beijing. Is it the only Chinese language? No, but it's still Chinese.

It's like someone saying something is pasta and then another person saying "No, it's macaroni".

 

[Ironbear24]

like I've said before. you have an interesting life lol.

I never thought so. It's mostly boring until once in awhile something dumb happens. My life mostly consists of college/work, weight training and martial arts. I guess looking at it from someone else's perspective though I have gotten into some odd situations.

 

[Ironbear24]

Not to derail, but Mandarin is Chinese. It's the "official" Chinese language and the most dominantly spoken in Beijing. Is it the only Chinese language? No, but it's still Chinese.

It's like someone saying something is pasta and then another person saying "No, it's macaroni".

It's sort of like when people say he or she speaks Mexican. It just sounds a little ignorant or uninformed. Chinese is not a language but a nationality, same with Mexican. The language commonly spoken in China is Mandarin, just like the language spoken in Mexico is not Mexican, it is Spanish.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

It's sort of like when people say he or she speaks Mexican. It just sounds a little ignorant or uninformed. Chinese is not a language but a nationality, same with Mexican. The language commonly spoken in China is Mandarin, just like the language spoken in Mexico is not Mexican, it is Spanish.

Or the people who say they speak "American" or "Australian" haha

 

[Ironbear24]

Or the people who say they speak "American" or "Australian" haha

Yeah. We both speak English even though it is slightly different, it is still English.

 

[wingchun100]

I once helped a woman getting beat up by what I thought was her abusive boyfriend. He even (verbally) threatened her with a screwdriver. I kicked his *** and next thing I know the woman sucker punched me from behind then I had to fight both. Lucky for me police stopped everything but if they had not who knows what would have happened.

Playing hero is not always a good idea or even plausible. The cop then lectured me about how I should have just called the cops and done nothing. I didn't argue with him but was very much in shock that what I did was considered "the bad choice."

We are so used to hearing about people being heroic and being praised for it but most of that stuff is all just stories. In the case of the bus I would have done something, that's not a place you can just call the cops and expect to appear quickly.

Reminds me of the story I heard about a Walmart employee who went into the parking lot to stop a woman from being attacked...prevented it...and then got fired!

 

[kuniggety]

It's sort of like when people say he or she speaks Mexican. It just sounds a little ignorant or uninformed. Chinese is not a language but a nationality, same with Mexican. The language commonly spoken in China is Mandarin, just like the language spoken in Mexico is not Mexican, it is Spanish.

If people want to be technical, it's actually not Mandarin - it's Putongua. Mandarin is a antiquated name that the west still uses. The Japanese language wouldn't be "Japanese" either... it would be Nihongo, etc. Saying you speak "Mexican" is weird yes... it would be better to say "Mexican Spanish" as it actually does differ quite a bit from Spain Spanish. The common way, in English, that we refer to a language is by its country of origin. German for Germany, French for France, English for England, Japanese for Japan, Chinese for China, Filipino for the Philippines (even though, like China, they speak a number of languages the most common being Tagalog). I've picked up some nihongo, putongua, French, and pasaa Thai over the years and it's a pretty universal way to refer to languages... language of "country".