Dealing with Big Muscles...in a Student?

[geezer]

What do you do when you are confronted with big, bulked up dudes. OK-- you cand use speed, technique and borrow their power to beat them. That's what our art is about. But what do you do when they are not your opponent, but a student!!! You know, the kind of folks that are really into physical training, heavy lifting, body building and that stuff. You can prove to them that you don't need big muscles, but what do you say to the guy that really wants them anyway, for whatever reasons? I've actually seen students drop out rather than have to give up their "bod"!?!

So here's the question. How do you (or your Sifu) deal with big, bulked up students? Can a person be big and ripped and still be great at WC/WT?

 

[Andrew Green]

Why on earth would you want them to give up their strength? Being stronger then your opponent is always an advantage, one that they can exploit quite well.

If you have a student that is tall do you not teach them to take advantage of their reach? or if they are fast their speed, strength is no different. It is an advantage, one that they can use.

 

[jarrod]

i'm not a WT guy, but in my jujitsu class i'll say something like, "you're a big guy, you can obviously out-muscle me. let's focus on technique & conserving energy." for a while i thought that students wouldn't respect me if i couldn't tap them out regularly. but if i'm honest in this way, most of them have actually respected me as a technician & coach even if they are better athletes.

jf

 

[martyg]

So here's the question. How do you (or your Sifu) deal with big, bulked up students? Can a person be big and ripped and still be great at WC/WT?

Make them do a 100-200 push ups before they work out. They get to keep their muscle, and you get someone whose arms are to tired to use the muscle to interfere with what they should be doing. As far as issues to range of motion and positioning due to bulk, you just have to work around those if you want them to stay. Tailor the program to their needs rather than doing a one size fits all line drill style.

 

[martyg]

Why on earth would you want them to give up their strength?

Because this art isn't based on localized muscle, i.e. muscular strength.

Being stronger then your opponent is always an advantage, one that they can exploit quite well.

Depends how you define "stronger". Muscularly stronger, no. Structurally stronger, sure.

If you have a student that is tall do you not teach them to take advantage of their reach?

Muscular strength comes and goes, height does not (barring something where you loose your legs).

or if they are fast their speed,

That's one of the first things I do with a beginning student is knock down their speed. They're often off to the races with nothing to back it up.

strength is no different. It is an advantage, one that they can use.

Actually no, in this art it is often seen as a disadvantage. In my family we spend a fair amount of time trying to cut down localized muscle to just the support base needed for bone alignment and support - i.e. no different than for holding a pencil or a cup of water.

 

[girlbug2]

Am I understanding correctly that you don't want students to have any visible muscular definition?

 

[martyg]

Am I understanding correctly that you don't want students to have any visible muscular definition?

Not sure if you're asking me, but no, not asking or implying that. What they do on their own time and for their health is up to them. I'm stating that muscular definition and usage will not help them achieve certain things in what I teach (I can't speak for Geezer or anyone else here). To keep a specific alignment requires minimal localized muscle usage. It can also inhibit some of the desired flow and responses when you have muscular tension. In some cases as well (such as the body builder guys Geezer was talking about), muscular bulk can actually be a disadvantage for various motions and initial positionings because of how the presence of bulk can restrict the range of motion of joints to be able to get those positionings. Body builders can certainly be very flexible, but that's not what we're talking about here (i.e. if I have a bulked up chest and big tri's, there's only so far I can bring my elbow in front of my chest because the mass hitting mass physically won't allow it). Likewise, I'm in no way invalidating what other people practice or view as important in their arts - I'm not discussing their arts. I've actually had some pretty big guys that I've taught (including football linemen), and once I explained and shown to them how and why we work this way - and how it can benefit them, they've been very open to it and successful. The initial problem was in their original view on how martial arts and strength are "supposed to work".

 

[matsu]

this is exactly a problem i have. i have trained seriously with weights on and off (more on) and i do indeed have trouble relaxing the cetain muscles i need to get correct body alighnmtnt even for tan sau etc.
the tendency to muscle a move and be strong is so easy untill sifu shows me how technically weak i am and walks all over me.
i used to weigh 19 1/2 stone and i am now 16-17 st and in still impedes my moves,
i am difficult for my peers to del with but senir students kick the life out of me
matsu

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Being bulked up and strong should not be a problem.

The thing is that pure strength training, bodybuilding training, sensitivity training and neuromuscular structure training are different animals, even though they can complement each other.

Wing Chun is about efficiency and effectiveness. Here's the thing.

Too much muscular tension negates sensitivity needed for timing. You can be strong, bulky yet relaxed. It is a skill.

The importance is to tense explosively (Yang) and immediately go back to relaxation (Yin) to conserve energy, receive information and then exert control (Yang again).

This has to be understood by the student. Powering through all the time leads to getting gassed, tired and injured.

I've seen huge guys that can relax and are quite deadly.

As stated, getting strong guys gassed with complimentary and auxiliary exercises to get them a bit tired and less aggressive is a good strategy.

Yet not too tired, since they will not be able to learn fine motor skills well.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[mook jong man]

I have also taught pretty huge body builder type guys and like Marty has said they have problems with their elbow positioning .
I taught this one guy who had massive pecs from doing bench press and he could not bring his tan sao in and he kept on getting smashed in the chest .

I told him he would have to accept some sort of trade off , either keep up with the bodybody building and accept that there are some movements in Wing Chun that he won't be able to do properly or tone down the weight training to the point where he could at least get his elbow in a bit .

He decided to stay and toned down the weight training . I used to do weights as well and i found that it limited my speed , and in chi sau instead of re-directing resistance you would have a tendency to try and oppose it with your muscles.

These days i do bodyweight exercises which keep me toned and fit and don't seem to have any bad effects on my Wing Chun training.

In my opinion being muscle bound is not compatible with good Wing Chun.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I'm six foot three, very fat and very muscly (I like to think so)
Yet part of the reason why I do wing chun, is that there will be times when I will be up against that stronger opponent

I like being massive but also very quick. It is deceptive to my opponents, inside and outside of class.

There is always this theory that being of slight build makes you a better chunner. However, i think being muscly can help make you a better martial artist!!

At the end of the day, martial arts should be about improving yourself. If you want to be faster, then you might want to lose muscle. If you want to be stronger you might have to gain muscle. Although in wing chun, we try not to use strength, weight and strength are still an advantage (ie if two people of the same skill level but different weights hit each other, the heavier will have more power)

Being healthy is important, and if a student is muscly - good on him!

If they have huge huge muscles (crazy massive bodybuilder types) they may want to review which martial art they wish to do. Wing chun will give them certain new skills (speed etc), but they will struggle with things like chi sao as lactic acid will build up quickly in them.

My Sifu changes his body shape regularly because he sometimes has to go into BJJ tournaments, so he bulks up. Once he finishes, he loses a bit of his muscular shape in order to be quicker and more explosive

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally you should never try to down grade someones attributes. If someone is strong that is good, if someone is quick that is good, etc. and so on. What instead you need to do is train their technique so that they do not need to rely on their speed, strength, etc. Instead over time they will relax and not muscle, quick, etc. their way through something. Yet they still have the attribute and in the moment(Life of death situation) they may want or need to use it. Work on their form and function through a technique tell them to relax and let it sink into muscle memory. Once this is done they will be fine. Through out the years I have worked with many people who are very strong it is not an obstacle but instead a gift that they have.

 

[Kwanjang]

One Muscled Martial Artist comes to mind. Bolo Young. He was the yoked up guy in Bruce Lee's Enter The Dragon. He has been in other movies as well. His size and body composition doesn't seem to slow him down. I would respectfully disagree with saying weight training slows you down. Every time I bench press or squat- I used the time under tension concept. Slow on the negative and explosive on the lift itself. Under the iron I always kept in my head martial arts. Most every pro athelete weight trains to enhance their performance. Having said that, I was always "skinny" growing up. I took up weight training in my late twenties. I went from 130 to 150, then to 185, and at my most "Yoked" I weighed 215lbs. (being a small framed person, it gave me the body builder look) I did find it laborious being "Yoked". It was hard to keep my elbows in for my chamber hand. Over all flexibility was compromised--but, that was my fault for not stretching enough. Since training is highly speciffic, I had to compromise. I am a martial artist first. Besides to maintain that much muscle I had to eat everything that did not move. My grocery bill was staggering.

 

[matsu]

perhaps bolo was a martial artist b4 he got hooge?

thanks kamon(again) i dont intend to lose that much of my size as i think if i can adapt it will bring me a few advantages,but i am aware it does make me slower(i have reeel trouble relaxing my shoulders) and less flexible ......at this present time in my wc life.

thanks everyone, this was a thread i would have liked explored at some stage.

matsu

 

[geezer]

There is always this theory that being of slight build makes you a better chunner. However, i think being muscly can help make you a better martial artist!!

At the end of the day, martial arts should be about improving yourself. If you want to be faster, then you might want to lose muscle. If you want to be stronger you might have to gain muscle. Although in wing chun, we try not to use strength, weight and strength are still an advantage ...

My Sifu changes his body shape regularly because he sometimes has to go into BJJ tournaments, so he bulks up. Once he finishes, he loses a bit of his muscular shape in order to be quicker and more explosive

OK, that last part is a bit novel, but actually makes perfect sense. You can adjust your body-type a bit to suit your needs. And, it seems to me that a person can be pretty darned muscular before bulk and range of motion issues become a major problem. The greater problem is psychological, that is trying to use crude muscular force rather than relaxing and using good technique. On the other hand, if you are really focused on maintaining a relaxed state, remaining sensitive, and using good technique, maybe being "ripped" isn't such a liability. I know Emin Boztepe had a pretty damned muscular physique when he was in his fighting days... Hell, he was a freakin' monster, and he was also very agile and fast. Still is.

So anyway one reason I started this post was because I was pretty out of shape a year ago, so I started lifting weights and doing some cardio stuff at the same time I started back into WT. Well I've dumped a lot of weight and gotten a lot stronger, but my training partners sometimes complain that I'm too stiff. But by the end of practice, I find I am a lot more relaxed. I just takes a little while to loosen up. And then again, at 53 I'm an older guy so I really can't bulk up too much like the youngsters. And, if I do decide to tone it down, I guess I can change my workout routine like Kamon mentioned. Getting out of shape is usually not a problem!!!

 

[naneek]

i am six foot two and weigh in at 130 kg aprox, i carry a lot of muscle but a lot of fat too it does make it hard to keep elbows in but other than that the problems are by no means insurmountable

 

[KamonGuy2]

i am six foot two and weigh in at 130 kg aprox, i carry a lot of muscle but a lot of fat too it does make it hard to keep elbows in but other than that the problems are by no means insurmountable

And I expect you make up for it with your punching power!!
Try not to force your elbows in - let your body move naturally

 

[kidswarrior]

I suspect this varies in two ways: First, each individual body is different and responds differently, so it's very difficult to generalize what's *right* for all. Second, there's a difference between those who first show up with a weightlifter's build, and those who want to gain one in lieu of/or at the expense of MA training. To the latter--and I deal with a legion of these, teaching primarily late-teenage boys--I ask if they want to be pretty, or if they want to be a fighter?

In the old days (roughly talking the 60s), when I was boxing my trainer strictly prohibited my weightlifting. Yet I had a pretty good physique, maybe the best of my life. I find it's the same in MA's. Even now at my age, I'm probably the strongest I've ever been, and it's from working against body weight and gravity. But that's just how it's worked for me, everyone else's mileage may vary.