David Moerler Fraud Alert - Guestbook

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

Re: http://www.buffalotaichi.com/dragonsong/
David James Moerler / Shaolin Nine Dragons / Jade Pheonix Fraud Alert

I have received many reactions, good and bad, regarding the "Shaolin Nine Dragons / David J. Moerler Fraud Alert" website over the years , and welcome more. Here is an archive of the guestbook.

First listed are old entries. You may add your own as a guestbook by hitting the "Add Reply" button above. As always, I will not edit or delete them as long as they are not inappropriate for general viewing or are extraneous advertisements.

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

ENTRIES UP TO OCTOBER 2002

From:
Ken Stuczynski, 9 Dragons Sifu
Email:
Remote User:
Comments
Welcome! Post here and be heard, whether it's the good, the bad, or the ugly. Peace to you all.



From:
John Kelly
Email:
Remote User:
Comments
I was/am a friend of David Moerler through high school and college, and can only say that he has a lot of martial arts skill. Where he learned it...does it really matter if it is effective and can be passed on from teacher to student? Anyway Ken, thanks for keeping this site up. It is important to know that David, though a skilled fighter, has had no "formal" training that I am aware of...at least in his high school years. I wish you and David good luck!



From:
Gregory Davis
Email:
gdavis@assured-inc.com
Remote User:
Comments
It's too bad you had to learn of deception in your studies of martial arts. I am studying Tay son Nhan, Vietnam's version of South Shaolin Kung Fu. No claims of Shaolin lineage, only studies that have been pasted on. I am not Vietnamise, and will not claim to be, but I will study the style with all that I am as long as my Sifu is honest and truthful. Good luck to you and your studies. Dallas, Texas



From:
Scott
Email:
lkelly@tisd.net
Remote User:
Comments
Wow.. Very interesting story =) I wish you the best of luck. As a writer, I have to say that this would make a great book.



From:
Chris Manderino
Email:
cmando17@icqmail.com
Remote User:
Comments
First i would like to say I have studied Martial Arts since I was in 1st grade. during my time of study and practice I achieved the level on 2nd Dan(Black Belt)under a grandmaster of Tang Soo Do(A discipline in Moo Duk Quan) and I am currently in 9th Grade. Since then I have been reading books on different styles most self defense, but also I learned some Zen(as in learned how people use it, how it should be used and what it is about). I am also reading a book on TaiJutsu(A form of Ninja training), basic moves only thought. I have to say this is an interesting story you have. I would like to learn the rest of it, like What is Shaolin about/ how David teaches(exactly). I would appriciate if you found time to send me an email.



From:
Johann Spies
Email:
johann@protecting.co.za
Remote User:
Comments
Interesting story, and its unfortunate that it is true that there are many claiming such false heritages or knowledge. I've done research into the eastern philosphies/religions for a long time now, even lived in Korea. There is only one small disagreement I have and that is that the Shaolin has much to do with religion, since the reasons for its inception and all of the philosophies are drawn from Buddhism/Taoism.



From:
david simms it is up to u to find theright path
Email:
dave simms90@hotmail. com
Remote User:
Comments



From:
Just Passing By
Email:
Remote User:
Comments
Just writing in reference to http://kentropolis.com/dragonsong/teaching.htm

check this guy out. http://centerpointenergy.tripod.com/CPcurriculum.html

Never heard of these guyz before, but they sound like they're pulling similar scams.

Oh, btw, all this stuff (the forms mentioned in your website, Stone Warrior in particular) sounds awfully familiar to adds in Inside Kung Fu magazine from "Green Dragon Studios", might wanna request a catalog from them, think he got all his forms on videos from that school. Post what you find.

Quote:
Webmaster's Note: David claimed to have a strong relationship in Shaolin with the master of Green Dragon.* When I corresponded with him, he said his only contact was David's orders of videos, and yes, all his "new" curriculum in 1995 was from those videos.



From:
christopher
Email:
critter67401@hotmail.com
Remote User:
Comments
"Sooner or later I believe that this david person will drown in his own pool of selfishness and deciet. May the fuel of truth uncloud his eyes."



From:
Karen
Email:
karenqlee@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Comments
I'm am glad that you got away from this monster. There was a similar story that I heard of out of Tampa, FL & that man has already got what he deserved. So it will be David's turn sooner or later. & yes, you will be around to feel sorry for him.



From:
Tyler Hardy
Email:
Tyler4u2@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Comments
My name is Tyler, I am 24, and I have put off martial arts training long enough. I was wondering if you could recomend the best style for my needs and desires. I am tall, 6'1, mostly legs, 170 pounds and in good physical condition. I desire to learn a style that has not yet been seen in Hollywood. I was thinking of some kind of theatrical Kung-Fu or Woo Shu perhaps. I want to learn many kicks and flashy movements mostly for show. I would greatly appreciate it if you have any suggestions.. Thank you very much..


Tyler Hardy



From:
Mariko Kobayashi
Email:
Remote User:
Comments
Hi Ken! Happy Hello! I enjoyed exploring your website! Thank you for sharing your creativity and insight!

Sunshine Always - Mariko Kobayashi Shoukan-An Ninpou Taijutsu Dojo http://shoukan.buddhism.org/



From:
cheech wizzrd
Email:
none@all.com
Remote User:
Comments
when I lived in florida, I called your iron circle martial arts supply. too bad you got hoodwinked. someone needs to mail that david dude in a big way.



From:
Josh S.
Email:
Dragonchain@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Comments
Hello, sifu. Seems as though your website has definitely taken shape since my visit awhile ago. I see that there has been some significant exposure and challenges made to those who side with him. My support goes out to you, and after my b-day this year, I am done with school for a little while. I may yet return to my old stomping grounds and train with you again. Take care.



From:
a concerned student of the art's
Email:
CUinHell003@cs.com
Remote User:
Comments
WOW i cant belive this site. I'm glad someone has stepped up and said something about this, there are to many "fakes" put there!!and that discredits us all. i know of a similar situation, so this site hit a little close to home!! your's in the arts.



From:
s
Email:
Remote User:
Comments
seriously dude..I know more about david moerler then your can imagine..to bad...you really misses out on a good thing



From:
James
Email:
golaith@aol.com
Remote User:
Comments
ken,you know nothing of Davids early life,much of his life after the navy is unknown to me...he was never a disfunctional child



From:
Eric
Email:
eric@shaolin-fa-men-chuan.com
Remote User:
Comments
Please visit our site. http://shaolin.rr.nu/

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

MORE ENTRIES, UP TO NOVEMBER 2004

From:
dominic
Email:
dominic_antony@hotmail.com
Remote User:
Date:
Saturday, 03 May 2003
Time:
12:51 AM -0400
Comments
I am an 18 yrold boy who lives in kerala.I am very interested in my traditional cultures like energizing chakras and kalari and also kung fu(chi kung).I've not began yet.I want to know in what ways do i have to prepare my self mentally and physcially?????



From:
wayne dobbs
Email:
Remote User:
Date:
Sunday, 03 August 2003
Time:
11:22 AM -0400
Comments
this was a really bad site





From:
Thomas Hopkins
Email:
thebassguy2@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Date:
Friday, 10 October 2003
Time:
12:50 AM -0400
Comments
this site is really confusing,who is David, and what has he done, please EMAIL ME to help me understand. I am an active martial practitioner in Ninjutsu and phoenix eye fist kung fu. please tell me about this David guy, I would be love to try to research on him.



From:
Thomas Hopkins
Email:
thebassguy2@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Date:
Friday, 10 October 2003
Time:
01:10 AM -0400
Comments
ok..I studied the sight...and this guy makes me mad...this David guy, I feel sorry for him, he should have just made a "fight school" because he was good at it, and he wouldn't have had to live a lie, I'm a good fighter, I have watched so carefully, and practiced untill it hurt for hours, but thats not all martial arts is, especially not shaolin, this guy is really corrupted, and I damn well hope "what goes around comes around" email me if you get any more info on this guy, or anything for that matter, I need someone to email



From:
tom again
Email:
Remote User:
Date:
Friday, 10 October 2003
Time:
01:11 AM -0400
Comments
oops....thought it wasn't working



From:
George
Email:
Remote User:
Date:
Thursday, 30 October 2003
Time:
10:35 PM -0500
Comments
I began my martial art training 1975. I have met many an imposter with a story, a school and a tall tale combined with all the credentials. I also know that all that is written is not all true but your efforts for this site are a reaction to something real to you. Just realize you are living in a fishbowl, step back. There's a big world who has never heard of David Moerler, me included. If true, guys like this are everywhere and will never disappear. "To know yourself is to be enlightened" Let your anger go. I suggest you focus on knowing you let go of the false prophets, life is too short. Did you ever think you where a little nieve for a little too long. Funny what a name search will turn up. Best Regards George Moerler, 3rd Dan Tae Kwon do, USA



From:
max
Email:
mbungle@ignmail.com
Remote User:
Date:
Monday, 03 November 2003
Time:
11:50 PM -0500
Comments
yo ken. that sounds pretty messed up. I recently have been getting into a lot of eastern culture researching particularly with martial arts. it is because of people like this all over america that I have decided just to go straight to china and learn wushu right at the songshan shaolin temple. I like your site and hope you expose more criminals.



From:
Solomon Key
Email:
k_love212000@yahoo.com
Remote User:
Date:
Tuesday, 04 May 2004
Time:
02:43 PM -0400
Comments
I'm not sure what the truth is between yourself and 9D or Song Mountian. However I am very interested in expanding my martial arts skills. My Dad thought my Tai Chi Kung Fu or as you probally well guested a form of it. So I figured Why stop there. I am a 22yr old Christian and do not agree with other religions but I can use so of the teaching as far as tapping into my chi power that I didnt know how to use with my style. Thanks for your time and consideration.



From:
fdg
Email:
Remote User:
Date:
Tuesday, 20 July 2004
Time:
02:37 PM -0400
Comments



From:
DS
Email:
Remote User:
Date:
Wednesday, 03 November 2004
Time:
05:11 PM -0500
Comments
http://www.ymaa.com is a place to discover training and materials related to true Shaolin martial arts: Kung Fu, Tai Chi, Chin Na & Qigong, as taught by Master yang, jwing-Ming, PhD. YMAA.com offers the most authentic Shaolin materials available in the USA. Please visit the site.

 

[Edward R. Murrow]

Ken,

I have studied Buddhism, Taoism, Qigong and Kungfu for over 20 years, I've studied Zen Buddhism in Japan, Shaolin Kungfu, Mahayana Buddhism and Qigong at the Shaolin Temple in New York. I studied Yang style Tai Chi, Hung Gar and Long Fist in Taiwan. I am no where near being a master of any of these things but I've trained under and sparred real masters and enlightened people.

I became aware of The Song Moutain Academy at the same time I became aware of Fraud Watch as I was seeking people to train with and this site seems to be a hub of martial arts activity in the area.

My personal approach to martial arts is that I learn from anyone and being honest with my own faults and short-comings, I don't make a life style out of pointing out other's faults, instead I engage them to join me in sparring training so we can both benefit by the opportunity we offer each other. While I'm grounded in traditional Kungfu, I don't carry the baggage of affiliation or allegiance to any school because all schools and all teachers are ultimately human. Some humans, however, are realized and some are not - still, I don't distinguish, I just try to grow. I'd rather clean up my own back yard than my neighbors.

Being aware of the claims you make about Davyd ( it's his choice how he spells his name ),Tony and the the Song Mountain school, I cautiously investigated the school. I have a good education to help me see how well equipped/ authentic a martial arts school or Buddhist teacher is. Over time, I found that Tony and everyone at the school are very well versed in and dedicated to their art. I have nothing to loose by challenging them with probing questions and I have enough education to understand their perspective on practice and theory. Given time, they earned my respect and I have no doubts in them. If, at some point, I were to find something not "true", it would not diminish the vast amount of teachings or good Buddhist character that they have. What I have to say about them is based on my own unique education in these fields and my best assessment of the group. I am not a puppet, I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm here to report my findings to the WNY Fraud Watch community.

*

Reading the posts here, I wonder if you started "Fraud Watch" because of your obsession with these people? Whatever the motive, you've really painted yourself into a corner. You're reputation, if it is important to you, is utterly wrapped up in your intense opposition of this group. I have never seen any group, martial arts or otherwise, so intensely hounded or persecuted as you do with this group. This not only frightens me but makes me wonder why are you going through all the effort? I understand you had some kind of painful experience, but when do you plan on getting over it? It's one thing to post a warning but to moderate a community and keep an ongoing investigation of your "truth", it's nothing less that Stalking on a virtual level.

Stalkers, characteristically, are people who cannot accept the rejection of the object of their desire. They transmute this pain into an attack. Seeking to build a community to believe in your truth sounds more like it is you who are trying to form a cult. I wonder what is it you really are gaining from all this? Revenge? When will you be satisfied? The pious goal of reporting truth, in this case, appears to me to be a thin disguise. Often the people who are busy pointing out the faults of others are distracting the public from their own fraudulent behaviour.

You have created a Kungfu McCarthyism with your hate-mongering message board. Here, people can speak with impunity, they don't have to be seen or take responsibility for their words, they can make any kind of claims without being challenged or required to prove their claims. We live in a time where gossip and bullying are a form of entertainment in our media culture. I'm affraid that is what this message board is becomming.

So now that I've said these things, based on real experience and education, am I going to be black listed? Am I going to be labeled as " brainwashed"? Am I going to be researched and slandered with a website in my name? Do I care that what people say about me is enough evidence to make it true?

Normally, flaming is not allowed on message boards and most people out of high school are mature enough to know good etiquette online but mean spirited words seemed to be fully acceptable here. At the top of this website it states "Friendly Discussion Forum", why then are you allowed to continue this type of forum?

I think the only truth any of your subscribers are going to find is if they personally attend this school with sincere effort and unbiased mind to test out the teachers and the system. Wouldn't we do that with any school we were curious about? Why does your word alone stand as the ultimate truth on this school?

By sheer volume of what they teach, it is clearly impossible to have picked it up from books ( and who really masters techniques from books, anyway? ). WNY has an incredible martial arts group in it's own back yard and you are warding everyone off from the benefits this school has to offer, you are doing the opposite of helping this community with your fraud watch. That is precisely why I'm posting these comments here. You can't Google The Song Mountain school without getting a barrage of libelous dogma from you.

After a recent visit at the school, I heard Davyd lamenting that the martial art schools in WNY were not more integrated in some kind of co-operative friendship, your site is certainly doing a good job of oppressing this sort of friendship and generally contributing to the paranoia between schools. Why can't we all come together in mutual respect?

You would be doing this community a better service by identifying when or where schools are engaging in unscrupulous behaviour, such as watering down their system, inventing ways to slow down their students to make more money from longer registration fees, bullying, Martial Arts baby sitting "classes", in-effectual Qigong/Tai Chi, giving "free" classes to so called instructors in exchange for them teaching ( Pay them! ), So-called "Black Belt Clubs" that are merely marketing platforms ... anyone who reads the Martial Arts trade magazines knows there are a lot of gimmicks to make money off of pimping their style. I've seen students that have been at the same school for 3 years and still don't have the basics of the style down? Who is standing up for these people? They have no point of reference, they blindly respect their "teacher", they are buying the exotic flavor of martial arts with it's fancy Oriental titles and uniforms... would you loose any friends if you started pointing out these fraudulent activities?

If you are aware of Buddhism and the Law of Karma, why are you setting all this negativity into motion? You're comments demonstrate that you have maybe an academic understanding of Buddhism, so how can you make claims for or against this group and it's teachers without practicing Buddhism and having even a basic ethical grounding. Your hatred has blinded you.

No amount of words will ever replace the authentic skill of a martial artist. I say this on my own grounds, I do not seek nor need the permission to say what I believe - I say: You should hope that your readers do not have the integrity to investigate this school first hand, because then it will be you who is revealed as the fraud.

I do not represent Song Mountain Academy in what I've stated above, and I appologize if anything I said has caused them any damage. I represent decency and it's about time someone stood up to your libelous bullying. We don't live in the McCarthy era, don't start a new one in our martial arts community.

We are not descended from fearful men.

"Those who know, do not speak.
Those who speak, do not know."
- Lao Tsu

 

[Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers]

In response to previous poster, which was put in two threads ...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=967561&postcount=57


ADDENDUM 2022: Haven't even looked at this in so many years and came across it again. The link above no longer works, but looking over this, I noticed the user "Edward R. Murrow" seems to have created an account solely to address this one discussion. Even if he's real, he goes a long way to use pages of rhetoric and mental acrobatics to skew reality to his own feelings, which he is entitled to. And for the record, I openly concede that their students themselves are likely sincere and sometimes skilled, even to where some actual lineaged curricula were added by those who joined. And I never cared if they were lineaged to begin with -- just that they were honest about it instead of fostering a cult myth. But the commenter didn't stop there. He threw up all the usual platitudes and cliches pseudo-spiritual trolls use to show one's rightness and the error of another.

I am vilified and even called a liar for publicly preserving documented facts people deserve to know if they are going to associate with a fraud (who still lurks in the background of their once-again rehashed school). He calls that libel, thereby libeling me, but I have the receipts. (And I kept all the documents for just such an occasion.) I say it's unethical to lie about one's origins and credentials, especially being so outlandish. He finds every way possible to sidestep the basic morality of that, saying it doesn't matter! He can't make up his mind if he needs to convince me to just keep quiet for some weakly argued benefits of doing so, or if what I say isn't true at all. What a low place to speak from for someone with such alleged credentials -- someone who ought to know better than be so duped and emotionally invested to write such apologetics. I can only hope -- if they are a real person -- that they learned their lesson and moved on by now. I can only wish them better, as I kindly do for the original perpetrators in this unfunny comedy.

As for the school in question, or its current incarnation, now and then I find out what they are up to, but care very little. They've learned to stay under their rock and not stick their neck out too far by now. They had their fun and have their own karma to deal with. I've minimized their damage, cleaned up some of their messes, and consoled some of their victims now and then over the years. I've devoted little or no time to this in recent years, but consider what all I have done to be a just penance for unknowingly using my own credibility to establish their dishonest myths that started it all so many years ago.