Coordination vs. Motion

[Carol]

There is something here that I just can't figure out.

When my instructor steps through a technique or a set of motions with the class, I have a horrible time following it along, and always have. I can't "watch and learn" and...never have been able to, really. I've never succeeded with group exercise or dance or anything similar.

My instructor picked up on this very quickly, and frequently watches me to see how my movements are. He'll offer me a verbal correction, and if I stil dont get what I am doing (which is typical), he will gently reshape my arms so I get the feel of what it is that I am trying to learn. As soon as he does this, this all makes sense...but I feel like a blooming idiot not being able to pick up on his movements the way the rest of the class does.

This contrasts sharply with my coordination. Recently, a BB and I paired up for some stick drills. I flew through the single stick drills. Flew through the optional double stick drills. The BB challenged me to do the reverse of the double-stick drill (attacking with my left hand first instead of my right). No problem. We then started circling around each other, then started alternating the attacks between left-hand first and right hand first. He stumbled. I didn't. At the end of the drill, the BB apologized to me for messing ME up. Uhhhh....that's a role reversal

I can't learn a technique like "Leaping Crane" without at least one person literally pushing me in to position...which is totally embarassing...yet I fly through coordination drills.

My question for you all...esp. for those of you that teach...what am I missing here? Have any of you seen a beginner with such a disconnect? I can't quite figure it out.

 

[stickarts]

you may not be missing anything! That just may be how you learn!
I have taught students that picked up techniques as soon as they see it.
Others have to hear it, and others have to be moved into proper positions. some require a combination of these methods.
one guy at a camp couldn't get a form down so I had him put tape on his wrist and would tell him to turn toward the tape hand or away from the tape hand!
I just did leaping crane today! Funny you should mention it!
Please be patient with yourself.
Also, the more you learn the more you will be able to relate new techniques to other techniques that you already know so it will become easier.

 

[green meanie]

I think you've kind of hit it on the head already just by making the distinction between the two. A person's ability to learn and comprehend and a person's coordination are two separate things. Everyone learns a little differently: some learn best by being told, some by being shown. And coordination is an entirely separate matter;some people are just naturally more coordinated than others.

 

[Kacey]

I agree. Some people learn orally (through verbal instruction), some visually (writing or demonstration), some kinesthetically (through motion), and so on - Howard Gardner addresses this in his theory of multiple intelligences, usually in the context of formal education, but it can be applied to other learning tasks as well (details at http://www.thomasarmstrong.com/multiple_intelligences.htm, http://www.ed.psu.edu/INSYs/EsD/gardner/MItheory.html and many other sites). Good instructors (and teachers) know this, and present information as many ways as possible, to meet the needs of the students - which is sounds like your instructor is doing. I have students who learn kinesthetically too - and I do the same thing; I physically manipulate them through the movements. It has little to do with coordination - in fact, kinesthetic learners tend to be coordinated. Be glad your instructor is able to teach to your learning style, and enjoy!

 

[Danny T]

Carol,

I'm certainly not of great knowledge in all the manners one is capable of learning. However it is my understanding that for the most part humans have 3 major modes of learning. Those being, Audio, Visual, and Kenetic.

Audio is by hearing. An audio learner is usually the person who can just listen to someone speak about a subject and picks up the information. They are the people who seem to never be listening in school but somehow aways have the information.

Visual is the seeing of the information. They need to see or visualize the information to understand how it pertains to them or the subject. Often they are the people who simply read or watch and are able to perform or regirate the information.

Kenetic is the actual doing or working the information, possibly doing a project to gain the knowledge.

You seem to be a kenetic learner. Place my hands where they need to be, help me articulate the movements and positions. These are the people who we often call natural. They are the ones who just get on the gym floor and after doing the movements a couple to times with someone simple get it.

I have had many such learners. I am such a learner. Gotta feel the movement, gotta feel the position against someone. Don't show it to me or tell me how to do it. Do it to me. After feeling it a few times I can then be shown it and will be able to follow along. Don't feel badly about this many people are kenetic learners but most of the information is shown first, then talked about, performed in the air, and finally performed against another. It isn't until then that the kenetic learn finally gets to learn and shine. More often than not if working new information I will with get with someone I know to be a visual learner and have them perform the actions against me first even if I am of a higher level or get the instructor to demo it on me.

Danny T

 

[Danny T]

Oops, Kacey, Wasn't trying to steal your thunder, You posted before I did.

Danny T

 

[Kacey]

Oops, Kacey, Wasn't trying to steal your thunder, You posted before I did.

Danny T

Danny -

No worries - I do that too; start writing something, post it, and then find out someone else posted the same thing while I was writing mine.

 

[liuseongsystem]

you dont have a problem with the sticks because they give you an external focus for movement. you can see the lines the stick needs to traverse quite easily it seems.

sounds like your internal kinesthetic sense needs a little work. you might learn faster by learning techniques in application on a partner....paired technique training...if you have something to touch and feel the technique it might imprint more swiftly.

in kinetic learning, the information is processed differently, being a feedback of pressures involved, and this mainlines it into the subconcious.

my teacher instructs by saying 'no,not like that, like this!' and then he does it too you, best way to learn imo.

peace.

 

[MJS]

There is something here that I just can't figure out.

When my instructor steps through a technique or a set of motions with the class, I have a horrible time following it along, and always have. I can't "watch and learn" and...never have been able to, really. I've never succeeded with group exercise or dance or anything similar.

My instructor picked up on this very quickly, and frequently watches me to see how my movements are. He'll offer me a verbal correction, and if I stil dont get what I am doing (which is typical), he will gently reshape my arms so I get the feel of what it is that I am trying to learn. As soon as he does this, this all makes sense...but I feel like a blooming idiot not being able to pick up on his movements the way the rest of the class does.

This contrasts sharply with my coordination. Recently, a BB and I paired up for some stick drills. I flew through the single stick drills. Flew through the optional double stick drills. The BB challenged me to do the reverse of the double-stick drill (attacking with my left hand first instead of my right). No problem. We then started circling around each other, then started alternating the attacks between left-hand first and right hand first. He stumbled. I didn't. At the end of the drill, the BB apologized to me for messing ME up. Uhhhh....that's a role reversal

I can't learn a technique like "Leaping Crane" without at least one person literally pushing me in to position...which is totally embarassing...yet I fly through coordination drills.

My question for you all...esp. for those of you that teach...what am I missing here? Have any of you seen a beginner with such a disconnect? I can't quite figure it out.

Carol,

Don't let this get you down in your training. Like the others have said, everyone is going to learn at a different pace. Some will pick things up better by actually doing it along with someone, some get it better with verbal instruction. You may want to break the techniques down even further by doing just a few moves at a time over and over. Gradually add in more, repeating the process until you've done the entire technique.

Keep up the hard work!:ultracool

Mike

 

[Carol]

I can't say I am frustrated anymore, Mike


This is a huge EUREKA! moment for me. Migosh I'm not alone!

Frank, that fellow with the tape on his hand...I think he's my long-lost brother

Kacey and Danny: I've never heard of Kinetic/Kinesthetic Learning before this post...and very glad that both of you posted your thoughts. This is making SO much more sense now and having two different explanations helps a lot.

you dont have a problem with the sticks because they give you an external focus for movement. you can see the lines the stick needs to traverse quite easily it seems.

sounds like your internal kinesthetic sense needs a little work. you might learn faster by learning techniques in application on a partner....paired technique training...if you have something to touch and feel the technique it might imprint more swiftly.

in kinetic learning, the information is processed differently, being a feedback of pressures involved, and this mainlines it into the subconcious.

my teacher instructs by saying 'no,not like that, like this!' and then he does it too you, best way to learn imo.

liuseongsystem, I'm speechless over this. You are right. I do have a music background...when I have a focus point, I can quickly match a simple pattern...whether it is picking out set of numbers (what I do for work), drawing a pattern with a set of sticks, or tapping out a rhythm with punches, blocks and picks.

I'm intrigued by what you say regarding internal kinesthetics. I do learn faster when paired with a partner although, as Danny mentions, this is typically the last step in the process. Are internal kinetics something that can be willfully imporved? Or is it something that will progress along with the rest of my training? I'm just curious. When I have new words thrown at me I tend to ask a lot of questions

You all have some AWESOME input!

 

[stickarts]

I can't say I am frustrated anymore, Mike


This is a huge EUREKA! moment for me. Migosh I'm not alone!

Frank, that fellow with the tape on his hand...I think he's my long-lost brother

Kacey and Danny: I've never heard of Kinetic/Kinesthetic Learning before this post...and very glad that both of you posted your thoughts. This is making SO much more sense now and having two different explanations helps a lot.




liuseongsystem, I'm speechless over this. You are right. I do have a music background...when I have a focus point, I can quickly match a simple pattern...whether it is picking out set of numbers (what I do for work), drawing a pattern with a set of sticks, or tapping out a rhythm with punches, blocks and picks.

I'm intrigued by what you say regarding internal kinesthetics. I do learn faster when paired with a partner although, as Danny mentions, this is typically the last step in the process. Are internal kinetics something that can be willfully imporved? Or is it something that will progress along with the rest of my training? I'm just curious. When I have new words thrown at me I tend to ask a lot of questions

You all have some AWESOME input!

The "tape" guy was very smart but unfortunately has dyslexia. The tape did the trick.
I am sure you will pick up your own tricks.
I do a technique slow about 100 times and that works for me! Lots and lots of reps...slowly!!!!

 

[liuseongsystem]

'm intrigued by what you say regarding internal kinesthetics. I do learn faster when paired with a partner although, as Danny mentions, this is typically the last step in the process. Are internal kinetics something that can be willfully imporved? Or is it something that will progress along with the rest of my training? I'm just curious. When I have new words thrown at me I tend to ask a lot of questions

i teach differently that a lot people do, and do so with one or two people at any given time, from my home. so the dynamics are different the usual setting, like in a dojo.

i tend to give a small amount of form practice and move into paired partner training, and correct from that point on. to me, this is a superior to teach the art i do as it gives the student a very good concept of what it is that there are trying to do in the air. subsequently, we continue to work form with intention now, which is learned in the two man training. for some people it is very hard to move their limbs correctly if they dont know what they are supposed to be doing. the feedback that you get from a partner will teach some people very quickly..and certain things, like timing, can only be learned with a partner.

i know many others teach personal movement first and teach intention/application later, but i personally feel that getting a student to grasp the concept and have some 'hands on' is much more valuable material to take home and work on.

as far your kinesthetic perception, or ability to feel what your body is doing, is developed primarily by moving very slowly, like taichi, through the movements of forms, solo drills, and paired practice. since the main issue is coordination, it behooves you to slow down to examine the process that your body is undergoing as you move about. later, when you have the coordination, then you can slowly speed up the movements without 'breaking up' your posture.

in most cases, in techniques, it is not that people need more strength or speed, what they usually are lacking is proper lineups, timing, and coordination.

hope this helps.

 

[Carol]

Interesting, and quite fascinating how you teach the way you do. I really appreciate your input.


I don't seem to have an issue with feeling what my body is doing, per se. I seem to have a complete block when processing a visual image. I notice this with things that I know well.

Example: A right neutral bow stance.

Say the words "Right neutral" and can immediately assume the stance. I associate those words with the stance.

Say something like "Jab with your right..." or "Left cross..." and I can immediately assume the stance. I associate the function with the stance.

If my partner were to stand in a right neutral and say "Stand like this," I couldn't do so without a step-by-step mental analysis. This is where I get incredibly frustrated.

 

[liuseongsystem]

don't seem to have an issue with feeling what my body is doing, per se. I seem to have a complete block when processing a visual image. I notice this with things that I know well.

Example: A right neutral bow stance.

Say the words "Right neutral" and can immediately assume the stance. I associate those words with the stance.

Say something like "Jab with your right..." or "Left cross..." and I can immediately assume the stance. I associate the function with the stance.

If my partner were to stand in a right neutral and say "Stand like this," I couldn't do so without a step-by-step mental analysis. This is where I get incredibly frustrated.

lol...i misunderstood you intially on the one point... i am laughing because i am exactly the same way, a poor visual learner. i have been doing ma long time and i still have major problems with this. i cant train in front of mirror side by side to copy someone because my brain cant process the reverse image. in order for me to visually copy someone i have to look at each body part separately and 'put it together'. i learn well from pressure however and understand concepts no problem.

that is why i train the way i do....lol

to answer your initial question, you get it from the training. i can fire of most patterns of my system at will now, and can copy others who are moving in the way that i am accustomed to.

my wife, however, is one of the best visual learners that i have ever seen. see is my student and far exceeds me in physical mimicry skills by observation alone. her concept skill is good, but her kinetic perceptions could be better. maybe everybody is a bit weak in one area. maybe the people that learn superfast are good all three aformentioned methods of learning.

and imo, visual learning is only the initial stage, as concept and kinetics are really the technique. visual is just beginning imitation and the 'feeling' of the technique is really what is important, especially in the end result. your concept drives your intention, and that is definately more important than the 'look' of things.

thanx.

 

[Carol]

Thank you all VERY VERY much for the insight.

Once when out with a friend (and fellow musician) we started talking to a young man about studying music. The young fellow said "Why take lessons? Can't you teach yourself, and won't that develop your ear?

My friend said "Sure you can teach yourself. But, a good teacher can show you something in a few minutes that may have taken you months...or even years...to figure out."

:asian:

Thank you all for being such good teachers, and showing me something that would have taken me months...or years...to figure out. :asian:

The input that you all gave me has been helpful on many different levels.

Again, thank you so much. :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is something here that I just can't figure out.

When my instructor steps through a technique or a set of motions with the class, I have a horrible time following it along, and always have. I can't "watch and learn" and...never have been able to, really. I've never succeeded with group exercise or dance or anything similar.

My instructor picked up on this very quickly, and frequently watches me to see how my movements are. He'll offer me a verbal correction, and if I stil dont get what I am doing (which is typical), he will gently reshape my arms so I get the feel of what it is that I am trying to learn. As soon as he does this, this all makes sense...but I feel like a blooming idiot not being able to pick up on his movements the way the rest of the class does.

This contrasts sharply with my coordination. Recently, a BB and I paired up for some stick drills. I flew through the single stick drills. Flew through the optional double stick drills. The BB challenged me to do the reverse of the double-stick drill (attacking with my left hand first instead of my right). No problem. We then started circling around each other, then started alternating the attacks between left-hand first and right hand first. He stumbled. I didn't. At the end of the drill, the BB apologized to me for messing ME up. Uhhhh....that's a role reversal

I can't learn a technique like "Leaping Crane" without at least one person literally pushing me in to position...which is totally embarassing...yet I fly through coordination drills.

My question for you all...esp. for those of you that teach...what am I missing here? Have any of you seen a beginner with such a disconnect? I can't quite figure it out.

there are three types of learners: audio, visual and kinisthetic. You are a kinisthetic.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

Carol brought this thread up recently -- and I thought it worth bumping.

It's something that challenges lots of students: how do I learn this stuff?!

A good teacher is going to work across multiple learning methods and channels, so that hopefully one or more of them will get through to each student. But you also have to learn how to learn! A good student will seek out -- within reason -- different ways to learn until they find what works for them, rather than simply running through drills and exercises and hoping the light goes on some day. (Though that is really the only way I've found to teach some things... I can explain, pull, push & prod, and do unto till the cows come home... but you just have to practice and practice and try until you figure it out and can make it happen. There's no easy way or shortcut that I've been able to find.)