Conditioning

[MAist25]

In Taekwondo it seems as though traditional conditioning techniques have disappeared. Even though I use it, and others in my organization do, the use of the makiwara or kwon go seems to be something left in the past. Other conditioning techniques still used frequently in Karate have disappeared from Taekwondo. Only a very limited amount of practitioners go through these body hardening training methods such as He Il Cho, for example. How come these types of training have been abandoned? Karateka seem to continue using these traditional training methods very effectively even today.

 

[mvcoburn]

I agree with you, at least from what I have experienced. I used to complain about my instructor/school because he seemed to spend very little time on each area and try and cram everything into the 50/60 minute time frame. We would do conditioning for 15 minutes, kicks for 15 minutes, forms for 15 minutes and then stretch. I know there has to be a better way to work on all three, but focus on them on different days. In the end, conditioning was left up to me. The conditioning in class was your classic warmups, jumping jacks, sit ups and running.

I understand that this isn't the way it is everywhere. This is just my experience with a few schools.

 

[Xue Sheng]

How come these types of training have been abandoned? Karateka seem to continue using these traditional training methods very effectively even today.

Sales and $$$

Look at the size of your average Karate school as compared to your average TKD school these days

 

[MAist25]

It would be a real shame if the reason for not passing on this type of training were done simply for monetary purposes.

 

[TKDTony2179]

In Taekwondo it seems as though traditional conditioning techniques have disappeared. Even though I use it, and others in my organization do, the use of the makiwara or kwon go seems to be something left in the past. Other conditioning techniques still used frequently in Karate have disappeared from Taekwondo. Only a very limited amount of practitioners go through these body hardening training methods such as He Il Cho, for example. How come these types of training have been abandoned? Karateka seem to continue using these traditional training methods very effectively even today.

I would say that cardio conditioning have lasted over hard body. We also must look at the kind of students we have now days. TKD is or have spreaded into a padded art. Everyone have gear on from head to toe and even with out the chest pads the contact is light or non. Look deeper and you will see that most of the students in most of the schools are kids. Most American parents (moms) don't want their kids punching something that is going to disform their hands in the future when they only want a sport for the kid that has ADHD. Even when you have normal kids in class, they are in it for possible til 1st degree and then they quiet. You may be lucky to keep enough until 2 or third but by that time they have started and stop their training as years go by because they can't shoot up rank as fast as they did to get 1st.

I had someone ask me that question once and I said that well most of our students are kids and in America most adults that do take TKD are only doing with their kids and it is a hobby and a journey for them. For the lil self-defense they do learn they are not trying to be warriors. He said we have messed up the whole martial art. I said if you are training for full contact then yea it could come in handy and punching hard bags or boxing bags will work on shins and hands. But it isn't something you would do everyday. Like twice out of a week. Then he went on about a guy back in the 80's from our town that kicked pine trees. I said good for him.

What I am saying for the TRUE MARTIAL ARTS that want to be traditional and do hard body training you will find a short amount of people that will do it with you. For the martial arts that do sport and a few traditional training methods they will have more clients but be careful when mixing old with the new because I am seeing a lot of new stuff that is only sport and movie quality skills and not combative or self-defense.

Plus if you are full contact best believe you need to be in an area that will attract that kind of clients and not kids.

 

[Manny]

It would be a real shame if the reason for not passing on this type of training were done simply for monetary purposes.

But sadly it's true.

Manny

 

[Manny]

This is an interesting post, what I have seen over the last 4 years (when I returned to TKD) it's for example: in these days in the dojang no more push ups, very little sit ups and no hardening training, that's why the kids hurt themselves when punching, because their wrist and hands are not get use to conditioning hardening. In the old day back in the 80's we have regular pushups, knucle bupshups, etc,etc, and thte class was tough.

Manny

 

[mvcoburn]

Again, from my experience, I believe this is the movement, at least with some TKD schools, towards the concern of "overworking" their students and this is the same attitude with a lot of other sports (baseball, soccer, football, etc.). There are a few schools where I am from that do not include sparring because parents have stated that they don't want their children to get hurt or beat each other up. My answer was, "then why are you taking martial arts?".

 

[WaterGal]

I think it's mainly because TKD (and TSD) tend to be taught more as a sport than a way to really fight someone in a real-life situation.

Even in full-contact Olympic-style sparring, you're wearing pads and hitting someone in a padded area. There's a lot of cushioning there, so you don't really need much conditioning beyond toughening up the skin a little. And all you need for that is to do a lot of striking practice with heavy bags and firm focus pads.

There's also the whole thing where TKD is most popular for kids and teens, whose parents don't mind the occaisional bruise or bump, but might feel differently if little Suzie came home every class with her knuckles scraped up from conditioning practice.

 

[MAist25]

I just look at other martial arts such as Okinawan karate, and they do not change their ways of training simply because some people do not want to train hard. If people cant take the training, they quit, but karate does not change. In taekwondo the way we train changes and conforms to what the people want, which is the EASY way of doing things, especially here in America where the people are soft and need instant gratification/quick results. People here do not like dedicating themselves to tough training for years on end. But even in Korea, the tough, old-school ways of training are almost completely lost. It bothers me that karate is so steadfast in their ways and build karateka around their way of training, rather than rebuild karate into what the people want. Taekwondo on the other hand succumbs to the all-mighty dollar and gives in to discarding the tougher, yet valuable and important aspects of training, in order to please everybody. This is not good, this is not how good martial artists are made.


The idea that taekwondo is intended to be a sport is not an excuse, in my opinion. In recent years, yes, more and more people are training taekwondo for sport. But that is not what taekwondo was originally meant to be. TKD was a hard style of martial arts meant for combat. It was a military art and saw action in the Korean War. Sport taekwondo is simply a more recent component. But karate nowadays is becoming more sportified as well, yet their traditional art and training methods has not withered away like taekwondo's has. Karate is able to maintain both a traditional, combat related art in addition to a sport side, but taekwondo has almost completely transitioned to a sport. Why is this?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

In 1990-91, I was at a university TKD club and we did conditioning of forearms, by hitting forearms together with a partner.

The instructor was from Hong Kong, so sometimes I wasn't sure if something was from TKD or perhaps Chinese martial arts. For instance, he once said that when breaking with a hammer fist, Chinese martial artists put the thump on top of the fist (over the hole formed by the clenched fingers); this covers the hole and prevents the chi (internal energy) from escaping. However, he said TKD had no such thoughts.

So I was never sure if the hardening conditioning was from TKD or CMA. Or perhaps, it was because all the club members were guys, aged 18-25.

In any event, I've NEVER seen hardening conditioning at the 3 clubs (1 other university club, 2 private schools) I've joined since. I would think that most people (children to adults) wouldn't like it, and so it would be detrimental to attracting and keeping students.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Again, from my experience, I believe this is the movement, at least with some TKD schools, towards the concern of "overworking" their students and this is the same attitude with a lot of other sports (baseball, soccer, football, etc.). There are a few schools where I am from that do not include sparring because parents have stated that they don't want their children to get hurt or beat each other up. My answer was, "then why are you taking martial arts?".

LMAO! I was thinking the same thing. But teaching the student oath "I shall never miss use TKD" is part of not beating each other up or even non martial artist. I can pretend to swim all day but wont do me any good if I am not in the water.

 

[dancingalone]

But karate nowadays is becoming more sportified as well, yet their traditional art and training methods has not withered away like taekwondo's has. Karate is able to maintain both a traditional, combat related art in addition to a sport side, but taekwondo has almost completely transitioned to a sport. Why is this?

The sport karateka don't exactly train makiwara and hojo undo endlessly either. They stick to their sparring drills (just like sports-focused taekwondoin do) because they're training for success in a specific activity where body conditioning has relatively low utility to it.

If sport karate (WKF, etc.) was more popular on the scale of Olympic rules TKD, you'd likewise would see the old training methods fade away in karate. Fortunately, karate is a lot more fragmented than TKD is with many more styles and practitioners uninterested in sport (Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu, Shorin-ryu, etc.), and this means the older training methods and goals remain integral to their study. I see this generally as a positive, but I can understand if others disagree.

 

[dancingalone]

So I was never sure if the hardening conditioning was from TKD or CMA.

It's from CMA by way of descent through Okinawan and then Japanese martial arts. In Okinawan karate, it's called kotekitae. The ITF Taekwon-Do people refer to it as dallyon.

 

[MAist25]

I believe you are correct, dancingalone. I understand that karateka training purely for sport do not practice these traditional training methods. I also believe you are correct in that because karate is so "splintered," it allows the traditional training methods to survive. Because taekwondo is not as splintered, the exclusion of these training methods became mainstream. However, if you look at tang soo do, the art is splintered just like karate There really isn't a huge, monopolistic governing body like the kukkiwon, yet the traditional conditioning methods seem to have disappeared from TSD as well. Even tang soo do dojangs that claim to be "traditional" do not really practice these old-school training methods.

 

[MAist25]

I was thinking it might just be a cultural thing, but if you look at the modern Korean martial art of Gongkwon Yusul, they train in these conditioning methods....

 

[Manny]

I just look at other martial arts such as Okinawan karate, and they do not change their ways of training simply because some people do not want to train hard. If people cant take the training, they quit, but karate does not change. In taekwondo the way we train changes and conforms to what the people want, which is the EASY way of doing things, especially here in America where the people are soft and need instant gratification/quick results. People here do not like dedicating themselves to tough training for years on end. But even in Korea, the tough, old-school ways of training are almost completely lost. It bothers me that karate is so steadfast in their ways and build karateka around their way of training, rather than rebuild karate into what the people want. Taekwondo on the other hand succumbs to the all-mighty dollar and gives in to discarding the tougher, yet valuable and important aspects of training, in order to please everybody. This is not good, this is not how good martial artists are made.


The idea that taekwondo is intended to be a sport is not an excuse, in my opinion. In recent years, yes, more and more people are training taekwondo for sport. But that is not what taekwondo was originally meant to be. TKD was a hard style of martial arts meant for combat. It was a military art and saw action in the Korean War. Sport taekwondo is simply a more recent component. But karate nowadays is becoming more sportified as well, yet their traditional art and training methods has not withered away like taekwondo's has. Karate is able to maintain both a traditional, combat related art in addition to a sport side, but taekwondo has almost completely transitioned to a sport. Why is this?

Thank you for sharing, and I feel the way you do. I have some karateka friends and they are super proud about their training because as you wrote they do not change the way they train no matter money or what ever, in their dojos if the child or teen or female or men can not withstand the training they can leave in any moment.

I have spoken with my students ( I do not teach to children or teens) and told them we are martial art where hit and been hit is a norm so to not complain about it, however some times when I push a little (in the training) they complain and go with the master and complain with him and he ask me to back a little.

Manny

 

[dancingalone]

However, if you look at tang soo do, the art is splintered just like karate There really isn't a huge, monopolistic governing body like the kukkiwon, yet the traditional conditioning methods seem to have disappeared from TSD as well. Even tang soo do dojangs that claim to be "traditional" do not really practice these old-school training methods.

Well, I don't know that kotekitae was ever popular in Shotokan karate. Makiwara practice, yes... Perhaps this is the connection?

When we talk about taekwondoin falling away from body conditioning, do we know for sure everything found in Okinawan karate was regularly part of the training fare in Kwan era Korean karate?

 

[WaterGal]

Again, from my experience, I believe this is the movement, at least with some TKD schools, towards the concern of "overworking" their students and this is the same attitude with a lot of other sports (baseball, soccer, football, etc.). There are a few schools where I am from that do not include sparring because parents have stated that they don't want their children to get hurt or beat each other up. My answer was, "then why are you taking martial arts?".

Hah, yeah. We've got one mom that told us - after she'd signed up for the membership - that they didn't want their kid to spar because they don't want them hitting people. It's a real head-scratcher to me - what did she think martial arts involved? For now, we're allowing it (just don't come to sparring days), but eventually mom's going to have to deal with it or the kid's not going to advance any farther.

 

[MAist25]

Well, I don't know that kotekitae was ever popular in Shotokan karate. Makiwara practice, yes... Perhaps this is the connection?

When we talk about taekwondoin falling away from body conditioning, do we know for sure everything found in Okinawan karate was regularly part of the training fare in Kwan era Korean karate?

I don't believe that everything practiced in Okinawan karate transitioned to TKD, but I do believe conditioning did exist in the early kwans. I know He Il Cho has written about it, my grandmaster Richard Chun has documented some conditioning methods in early TKD as well. In our organization, the United States Taekwondo Association, under GM Chun, some instructors do include bone conditioning and makiwara training, etc. in their training and some do not. If you look in some of GM Chun's and Master Doug Cook's books, they illustrate some of these things. But even so, it doesn't seem mainstream at all today, although I do believe it was done more frequently back in the day.

Especially nowadays, it seems that many people, at least teens and people in their 20's and 30's disregard Taekwondo because it is not hard enough for them. After working at a muay thai gym, I saw people transitioning from TKD and other traditional arts to muay thai because TKD was not offering them the hard training they desired. If we are softening up the art to make it more appealing then why are people leaving for the exact opposite reasons? They are leaving because it is too easy now! I feel as though TKD is simply attracting the wrong type of people, people who want something easy, while other styles like muay thai are attracting the people who actually want to work hard. I do not believe TKD schools who are too hardcore would not attract people. I believe that they would stop attracting the SOFT people. They WOULD attract those who actually WANT to work hard and put the effort in. Why are we choosing to attract people who want an easy, comfy art that are going to represent TKD negatively when we could be like muay thai and hard styles of karate and attract people who want to work hard and learn a real martial art?