Conditioning

[TKDTony2179]

Hah, yeah. We've got one mom that told us - after she'd signed up for the membership - that they didn't want their kid to spar because they don't want them hitting people. It's a real head-scratcher to me - what did she think martial arts involved? For now, we're allowing it (just don't come to sparring days), but eventually mom's going to have to deal with it or the kid's not going to advance any farther.

I don't see that kid advancing since most schools requirement is sparring for testing. Do the kid have special needs or something?

 

[TKDTony2179]

I don't believe that everything practiced in Okinawan karate transitioned to TKD, but I do believe conditioning did exist in the early kwans. I know He Il Cho has written about it, my grandmaster Richard Chun has documented some conditioning methods in early TKD as well. In our organization, the United States Taekwondo Association, under GM Chun, some instructors do include bone conditioning and makiwara training, etc. in their training and some do not. If you look in some of GM Chun's and Master Doug Cook's books, they illustrate some of these things. But even so, it doesn't seem mainstream at all today, although I do believe it was done more frequently back in the day.

Especially nowadays, it seems that many people, at least teens and people in their 20's and 30's disregard Taekwondo because it is not hard enough for them. After working at a muay thai gym, I saw people transitioning from TKD and other traditional arts to muay thai because TKD was not offering them the hard training they desired. If we are softening up the art to make it more appealing then why are people leaving for the exact opposite reasons? They are leaving because it is too easy now! I feel as though TKD is simply attracting the wrong type of people, people who want something easy, while other styles like muay thai are attracting the people who actually want to work hard. I do not believe TKD schools who are too hardcore would not attract people. I believe that they would stop attracting the SOFT people. They WOULD attract those who actually WANT to work hard and put the effort in. Why are we choosing to attract people who want an easy, comfy art that are going to represent TKD negatively when we could be like muay thai and hard styles of karate and attract people who want to work hard and learn a real martial art?

Well, I am going to say that those people that leave TKD for Muay thai or kickboxing may not like forms, belts, testing, or kicks that sometimes don't work. They may like close range fighting which most tkd don't get involved with. Those people want quick results on training and of course.......NO KIDS!!! I see Kyokunshin being in the league of thai boxing but not tkd. Why? Well, most TKD have been advertise a safe martial art for people of all ages to do. Some school teachers I have been around won't teach sweeping or leg kicks yet a long how to get out of a head lock. But doing a twist kick or jump spin kick is their specialilty. Why? Because to them TKD is kicks with minimal hands. I even heard someone say that koreans cherish the hands and that is why we kick so much. LOL I don't think that is true.

Now are there people that want more out of their training? Yes. After a while kicking gets boring, punching gets boring. Knees and elbows become exciting and so do clinching. I do feel those part of TKD is missing as well as ironing.

 

[WaterGal]

I don't see that kid advancing since most schools requirement is sparring for testing. Do the kid have special needs or something?

At our school, we don't make students buy sparring gear upfront, and most of them wait a belt or two to get it. So, most of our students do non-contact sparring drills on their first test, and probably a third do that for their second test. She's past that now, and I think we can let her get away with that for another test or two, but after that..... well, I get the feeling she's getting embarrassed and is going to bug her mom until she relents.

 

[TKDTony2179]

At our school, we don't make students buy sparring gear upfront, and most of them wait a belt or two to get it. So, most of our students do non-contact sparring drills on their first test, and probably a third do that for their second test. She's past that now, and I think we can let her get away with that for another test or two, but after that..... well, I get the feeling she's getting embarrassed and is going to bug her mom until she relents.

We have one steps and forms at white -orange but they don't get the gear until orange and even then it is just sparring combination. I guess you can call that non contact sparring but it is rehearsed. We don't sparr until green belts. I do have a girl who is like 16 or something that takes from us and she only does it because she is a lil slow and she faints a lot so that is why I asked.

 

[dancingalone]

Especially nowadays, it seems that many people, at least teens and people in their 20's and 30's disregard Taekwondo because it is not hard enough for them. After working at a muay thai gym, I saw people transitioning from TKD and other traditional arts to muay thai because TKD was not offering them the hard training they desired. If we are softening up the art to make it more appealing then why are people leaving for the exact opposite reasons? They are leaving because it is too easy now! I feel as though TKD is simply attracting the wrong type of people, people who want something easy, while other styles like muay thai are attracting the people who actually want to work hard. I do not believe TKD schools who are too hardcore would not attract people. I believe that they would stop attracting the SOFT people. They WOULD attract those who actually WANT to work hard and put the effort in. Why are we choosing to attract people who want an easy, comfy art that are going to represent TKD negatively when we could be like muay thai and hard styles of karate and attract people who want to work hard and learn a real martial art?

All other things being equal, I think more people are attracted to training something like TKD or karate over muay thai or kickboxing. There's that pop culture expectation of wearing white pajamas and seeking self-improvement under the likes of Mr. Miyagi, which is a big asset to school owners in suburbia like myself. I don't think the big question is about whether TKD schools are attracting soft people or not. Rather it is how can we better serve the needs of our students so martial arts becomes a lifelong pursuit for more of them, rather than something they did for fun for a while as kids?

Good teachers give students what they NEED and occasionally what they WANT as well. If that means hard training, so be it. At my school, there is indeed a more intense training group, but it's by invitation only. This lets us keep the balance between serious martial arts students and those training more for moderate exercise and fun.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

At my school, there is indeed a more intense training group, but it's by invitation only. This lets us keep the balance between serious martial arts students and those training more for moderate exercise and fun.

I can guess the answers, but...what are the criteria for being invited? Is it simply desire to train hard and desire to enter tournaments, or natural ability as well?

I was looking at a club and was told the sparring class was by invitation for the serious students. I am better than average (red belt), worse than some others of course, and asked if a person can attend the sparring class without going to tournaments. I am middle aged and have no particular desire to go to tournaments. The answer was "why would we spend time training someone who isn't going to compete?".

 

[MAist25]

That's ridiculous, if you are serious about training you should be allowed even though you aren't into competing. I am the same way, I train really hard yet I do not wish to compete. I like your response dancingalone, the idea of having a tougher class offered to those who wish to train that way is a great idea. But then what about the question of rank? How can you have someone who doesn't train in the difficult class have the same rank as someone who is much more dedicated and does train much harder?

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

From what I have seen, the people (mostly kids) are train more often, attending the harder classes, test for BB with everyone else, but are simply much more impressive.

Also, for the sparring portion of the test, the GM will pair an impressive kid with another one, or with a more advanced BB.

 

[dancingalone]

I can guess the answers, but...what are the criteria for being invited? Is it simply desire to train hard and desire to enter tournaments, or natural ability as well?

We're not really into tournaments at all. We're a traditional martial arts school. The extra training is just more rigorous physically with high levels of contact and more techniques and drills from other arts like karate, judo, and aikido seep its way in. So the main barrier is age and a desire to do such things in the first place rather than any talent/desire to compete.

 

[dancingalone]

But then what about the question of rank? How can you have someone who doesn't train in the difficult class have the same rank as someone who is much more dedicated and does train much harder?

There is a curriculum required for promotion that everyone follows. People in the extra training program can learn more material in ADDITION to the school curriculum, but they're not tested on it for rank advancement. Frankly, some of the members don't even want to learn anything extra - they just want to spar harder with others who want the same.

 

[Gorilla]

We do a lot of leg conditioning!!!! Rolling out of shins with wooden canes!!!!a lot of heavy bag kicking!!! Turns you legs into baseball bats!!!!

Tons of cardio conditioning at altitude!!!

 

[punisher73]

Well, I don't know that kotekitae was ever popular in Shotokan karate. Makiwara practice, yes... Perhaps this is the connection?

When we talk about taekwondoin falling away from body conditioning, do we know for sure everything found in Okinawan karate was regularly part of the training fare in Kwan era Korean karate?

An excellent book is called, "Hojo Undo: Power Training for Karate". The author details the history and tools for training in okinawan karate. He talks about how the only tool that really made it from Okinawan Karate to the newer Japanese Karate was the makiwara. Even the japanese use of the makiwara differs than how most okinawans use it.

I would suggest that if the early kwans were only exposed to Shotokan, then they would not have been exposed to the more traditional training methods of okinawa.

Here is a good video on the hojo undo from the Goju ryu lineages.

 

[Kframe]

Maist25 that youtube video on the second page, with the guy punching the black pad was not a good example of conditioned hands. He is going to have loads of problems late in life due to his horrid looking knuckles.

I was looking at the various CMA methods of hand conditioning and I think they are the way to go. I have yet to see a video of someone doing CMA inspired hand conditioning and end up with deformed knuckles like that guys has.. Holy smokes..

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I was looking at the various CMA methods of hand conditioning and I think they are the way to go. I have yet to see a video of someone doing CMA inspired hand conditioning and end up with deformed knuckles like that guys has.. Holy smokes..

Check out CMA GM Pan Qing Fu, at 17:10 at the attached. Would you classify that as "deformed knuckles"? I saw him in the movie Iron & Silk about 20 years ago and couldn't believe it.

 

[MAist25]

Maist25 that youtube video on the second page, with the guy punching the black pad was not a good example of conditioned hands. He is going to have loads of problems late in life due to his horrid looking knuckles.

I was looking at the various CMA methods of hand conditioning and I think they are the way to go. I have yet to see a video of someone doing CMA inspired hand conditioning and end up with deformed knuckles like that guys has.. Holy smokes..

No, I do not ever plan on training until my hands look like that, but I do like conditioning my hands, just not to that extent. I think the makiwara can be a great tool and will only make your hands look like that if you allow that to happen. But from your experience, how does CMA conditioning differ from Okinawan and Japanese conditioning methods?

 

[Kframe]

Well, just based on what I have encountered, I have not seen anyone with those kind of lumps on there hand. Its not callous we want, its wolfs law we want. The small micro fracturing of the bone that is then filled in with denser material. That is what makes the bone more resistant to breaking on impact.

I currently have a routine I found on kungfu magazine. I am conditioning on a bag filled with mung beans. Like I said , im more interested in the effects of wolfs law and not callouses.

 

[punisher73]

No, I do not ever plan on training until my hands look like that, but I do like conditioning my hands, just not to that extent. I think the makiwara can be a great tool and will only make your hands look like that if you allow that to happen. But from your experience, how does CMA conditioning differ from Okinawan and Japanese conditioning methods?

The chinese rely heavily on herbal oinments (Dit Da Jow) that is supposed to prevent problems later in life. Morio Higoanna has big calloused knuckles, but does use the chinese herbs as well (which was a part of Goju-Ryu lineage as well through Kanryo's time in China).

Some build up will happen naturally even without use of the makiwara. I did a set of knuckle push ups everyday and had callouses build up on the knuckles. Callouses are causes by pressure/friction and the skin grows thicker there. What some people do though to get the big knuckles is to break down the cartilage/bone of the knuckles themselves. I talked to some old school guys from the 60's and 70's and they talked about punching brick walls to "reshape" the knuckles. That's the kind of thing that will cause problems later in life.

Okinawan use of the makiwara differered from the Japanese use (chinese don't use a makiwara as we see in karate) based on the okinawans mainly wanted to use it as a feedback tool and to develop proper alignment of the punch and to strengthen the connective areas for a strong punch. Many japanese use the makiwara AS a knuckle conditioning tool for the punch. Then when it was introduced to the American GI's it REALLY became a tool of hand conditioning and big "karate knuckles".

The Chinese method of hand conditioning mainly relies on slapping the hand on increasingly harder material to slowly build up the density of the hand (Wolf's law as someone has already mentioned). For example, a common iron palm method involves starting with a bag of mung beans (or dried peas) and slapping in a four count movement (palm, back of the hand, edge of the hand, fingertips) and then doing the other hand. You then work up to a bag of small gravel, and then finally a bag of iron/steel shot. Through the whole process, you utilize massage of herbs into the hands and special breathing and visualization methods making it more an "internal" process. They would also utilize spear hand thrusting movements into jars of rice and harder material as well.

In older Chinese kung fu texts, I have seen heavy bags used and wooden poles used for striking methods, but never a springy makiwara like the okinawans use. I think that the makiwara as we know it is an okinawan innovation.

 

[granfire]

I agree with you, at least from what I have experienced. I used to complain about my instructor/school because he seemed to spend very little time on each area and try and cram everything into the 50/60 minute time frame. We would do conditioning for 15 minutes, kicks for 15 minutes, forms for 15 minutes and then stretch. I know there has to be a better way to work on all three, but focus on them on different days. In the end, conditioning was left up to me. The conditioning in class was your classic warmups, jumping jacks, sit ups and running.

I understand that this isn't the way it is everywhere. This is just my experience with a few schools.

I can tell you, when you structure your hour right, you can put most everything in the one hour and leave it all on the mat.

I am having a bit of a reminder from when I trained and refused to continue counting after the 3rd or 4th variation of crunches - please don't make me laugh!

Of course, there are times when some things have to take priority over others. Like forms over sparring after tests, sparring before tournaments and before tests....

 

[Balrog]

In our school, if you're not sweating, you're not doing it right. Physical conditioning is critical to martial arts training, IMNSHO.

 

[Thousand Kicks]

I have never thought of conditioning or body hardening as a part of the modern school. Modern schools are businesses and as such they have to remain profitable or they close. Most classes I attend have a mixed crowd (age, experience, sex, and overall intention of training). Sure we work hard and sweat it out, but I always thought of body conditioning as my own responsibility.

I have no issues with people who train who don't want to compete or spar. As long as they understand they are just getting a cardio workout, it's fine. I, however, want more so I take it upon myself to find ways increase endurance and toughness.

There is plenty of information out there on modern and classic ways to train your body. We don't have to find a school that offers it or even a group of like minded people. If you want to do it, you'll find a way.