Combat Hapkido vs Sin Moo Hapkido

dancingalone

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He's the one invoking Hapkido - "Combat Hapkido" - I'll take him at his word - that's what he's trying to do. He misses the mark.

Combat Hapkido != traditional hapkido. It's as simple as realizing that and moving on.
 

FearlessFreep

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All of this is second hand so take it for what it's worth.

From what I've been told, GM P was testing for third dan about the time of my instructor, many years ago. GM P (not GM at the time : ) failed. However, he returned a few years later as 7th Dan; he had bought his rank. Other than a lot of money, I don't recall what the other side's motivation for selling him the rank was or what he received in return (and apparently there was a falling out either between GM P and the one who sold him his rank, or the next level up). But he basically bought his position for the sake of opening his school and business.

Now, as barely a first dan myself, I don't design to judge his techniques myself; I don't have the expertise or the background. What I've been told is that those of legitimate high rank in Hapkido can see that his technique is poor.

Now in the ensuing time, he has since brought in other people who really know what they are doing to help augment and support his on CHK system (notably BJJ and some other, better Hapkidoist) and there are peopl ein his organization that are talented, either from prior Hapkido or just plain naturally good, so you will find within the system people who know their stuff, but it's not really a result of what he knows, teaches or has passed down

Again this is all second hand passed from my own instructor and for myself, I believe it, but take it for what you wish
 

dancingalone

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Now in the ensuing time, he has since brought in other people who really know what they are doing to help augment and support his on CHK system (notably BJJ and some other, better Hapkidoist) and there are peopl ein his organization that are talented, either from prior Hapkido or just plain naturally good, so you will find within the system people who know their stuff, but it's not really a result of what he knows, teaches or has passed down

Thanks. That sort of crystalizes what I was trying to say. The system can certainly be a fine one due to the efforts of Pelligrini to grow it, whatever his personal flaws might be.
 

Kumbajah

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Combat Hapkido != traditional hapkido. It's as simple as realizing that and moving on.

No one is making him use "hapkido" as part of the name - if it's in the name shouldn't it be in the art? If it's in the art shouldn't it use the principles that make the art "work".

Or are you saying it's ok to be intentionally deceptive "Hey, I never said it was hapkido - it's different"

It seems to be your take - since the understanding of the founder of the principles of the art seem to be irrelevant to the art - "hey he's got some good people so what's the difference"

- hilarious :)
 

dancingalone

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No one is making him use "hapkido" as part of the name - if it's in the name shouldn't it be in the art? If it's in the art shouldn't it use the principles that make the art "work".

Or are you saying it's ok to be intentionally deceptive "Hey, I never said it was hapkido - it's different"

It seems to be your take - since the understanding of the founder of the principles of the art seem to be irrelevant to the art - "hey he's got some good people so what's the difference"

- hilarious :)

I think you just have a burr under your saddle about it for some reason and you can't let it go. I don't think that's hilarious though.

You've participated on enough of these Combat Hapkido threads to know the system is different, but you willfully persist in the belief that using the rather generic name "hapkido" means there has to be a deep and prevalent connection to the hapkido you practice and when there's not, it's a big deal to you.

Catholics, Gnostics, Mormons, Greek Orthodox - hey they're all Christians right? Never mind that each group has at least one serious tenet or doctrine that has the other groups in hackles about it.

In this, you're just like any other true believer, fervent in your cause and close-minded to an extent. Well, it's a free country.
 

Kumbajah

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No, I think it's hilarious what people will accept if they are being promised what they want.

You get the teacher you deserve - :)
 

Kumbajah

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Not at all - I think this brings the thread back full circle. You're basically saying "it's (CHKD) John P's great mixture of stuff he thought was cool it's not hapkido - get over it"

Fine - why should we care what John P thinks is cool? He doesn't seem to move very well -

"Well he's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"

But shouldn't he move with in the perimeters of Hapkido? He added Hapkido to the name.

"It's not Hapkido - it's his special blend"

Well why should I care what he thinks -

"He's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"

DOH!!! :lfao:- come on it's like "who's on first" - it's funny.
 

dancingalone

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Not at all - I think this brings the thread back full circle. You're basically saying "it's (CHKD) John P's great mixture of stuff he thought was cool it's not hapkido - get over it"

Fine - why should we care what John P thinks is cool? He doesn't seem to move very well -

"Well he's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"

But shouldn't he move with in the perimeters of Hapkido? He added Hapkido to the name.

"It's not Hapkido - it's his special blend"

Well why should I care what he thinks -

"He's got a 9th dan in Hapkido"

DOH!!! :lfao:- come on it's like "who's on first" - it's funny.

Kum, is it really so hard to have a rational discourse on this topic for you?

First, don't attribute arguments to me that I never made. It's the strawman fallacy and just makes you appear desperate to make your point at all costs. Be respectful of other people and take the time to understand their posts rather than superimpose what you think they said according to your own prejudices.

There are a number of points I have made on this thread. I will summarize them, more for others since I don't believe you are sincere in your participation.


  • Hapkido people should be careful making an issue about Pelligrini's rank given the cloudy nature of rank in Korean martial arts in general. Trace your lineage back far enough and you likely won't find a lot that seems above the board.

  • Pelligrini's execution in some techniques on video does seem to be 'wrong' in certain aspects like distancing, excessive stepping, and use of lineal force. But I have not seen him in person and I suspect he is much better live on the mat.
  • One reason for the variance may be due to the influence of other systems that DO utilize strength and brute in-line movement more so than perhaps THKD does.
  • Or Pelligrini may be have performed the techniques less well due to the presence of the camera or he may have intentionally performed them a certain way thinking it would be more clear on camera.
  • Combat Hapkido is an eclectic system with people from a variety of backgrounds. It is understandable to see some variation in execution across practitioners where some even junior to Pelligrini will appear more adhering to THKD principles. Some of these people undoubtedly influence the system whether they are just part of the group or whether they were brought in by Pelligrini to add something specific such as cane techniques or trapping techniques. A parallel was drawn to General Choi who had similar lieutenants and outside resources.
  • Combat Hapkido is organic and Pelligrini continues to advance his system in content. Over the years, it would not be surprising to see that his own personal skill has improved over the standard recorded in the instructional videos.
  • And finally, Combat Hapkido is NOT Traditional Hapkido despite sharing the same common root name. No need to do anything other than accept it and move on.

Hmm, on that last note, I thought it interesting that Dave mentioned hapkido styles are different and difficult to discuss on boards like this accordingly. The key is to find a common link. Maybe the same advice could be applied by some to CH?
 
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Kumbajah

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So why should we care (and buy) what he thinks? - i.e. his art of COMBAT Hapkido - Why should his opinion be something we find informed and of value. What separates him from some other guy pulling together stuff he thinks is cool in his garage?
 

dancingalone

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So why should we care (and buy) what he thinks? - i.e. his art of COMBAT Hapkido

Trolling again? YOU don't have to do anything. It's a free country.

As for others, if they are interested in CH, they can investigate it for themselves to see if it is a good fit for them. Threads like these can only help the process.
 

Kumbajah

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Right - but in your opinion what gives his opinion authority? Why would you trust his judgment? Given this is something that you may stake your well being on? (rather then a simply a fun activity )
 

dancingalone

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What makes any teacher credible and worthy of learning from?

By the way, reasonable people can still arrive at a different answer when given the same input. It doesn't necessarily make either person wrong. Martial arts are like that unlike a math problem.
 

Kumbajah

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Well some move impressively well, some are field experienced, some have spent years in their art, some are sport champions.

He doesn't have any of those things.

There are many different Martial Arts - I've never claimed that Hapkido is the answer for everyone. One mountain many roads.

I'm simply asking why would you trust a man that doesn't have any of the above criteria?

If you think the above criteria isn't a valid test - what would be? Why would you trust this man's opinion?
 

dancingalone

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He doesn't have any of those things.

It's all about 1) is it useful? and 2) can he teach it? I don't know anything about Pelligrini's teaching skill. I do have enough experience in martial arts myself to look at his material critically and consider whether it is useful to to others or to me . Could I make this work for myself? Could I learn it, internalize it, adapt it enough to be able to teach it effectively myself? On this test, I would say yes, the base CH material I have seen is useful and repeatable across a variety of attackers, even those larger than oneself. It requires no more strength or agility to execute than any other commonly available martial art.

There are many different Martial Arts - I've never claimed that Hapkido is the answer for everyone. One mountain many roads.

But you've been adamant enough that Pelligrini is not skilled at the hapkido you practice. Fine. Combat Hapkido != Traditional Hapkido. Repeat to yourself as many times as necessary.

I'm simply asking why would you trust a man that doesn't have any of the above criteria?

If you think the above criteria isn't a valid test - what would be? Why would you trust this man's opinion?

If you're asking me personally, I don't know the man enough to say anything about trusting him or his system. I only trust the styles I have chosen to train in myself.

That said, I've reviewed his beginner material enough with a jaundiced eye to believe it is legitimate enough to train in under the watchful guidance of an instructor. There certainly are plenty of physical schools that train in something decidedly worse.

Combat Hapkido gets a bad rap due to the video learning aspect unfortunately. If Pelligrini got rid of this part of CH, I bet a lot of animosity would go away.
 

Kumbajah

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Is it useful? A Big question -

How do you know it's useful? You looked at though the lens of the martial art you know (Karate and Aikido - correct) so you can see that it's slightly similar to what you know, but different. I can see through a Hapkido lens and it doesn't seem valid.

How do you know what he changed is valid? Seems not to employ Hapki/Aiki principles. He doesn't seem to move impressively well - "wow - I've got to learn that!"

Why should we trust his opinion?
 
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dancingalone

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Is it useful? A Big question -

How do you know it's useful? You looked at though the lens of the martial art you know (Karate and Aikido - correct) so you can see that it's slightly similar to what you know, but different. I can see through a Hapkido lens and it doesn't seem valid.

How do you know what he changed is valid?

You've answered the question already. Because what I see is close enough to material I have already seen elsewhere.

And what changes are you talking about? You said over and over again this is not the hapkido you understand. So we've established CH does not have a base from which you work from. Fine and dandy. So why are you arguing about a mass of material which is different from yours? It makes as much sense as me complaining that kenpo doesn't work... an art I don't practice at all.


Seems not to employ Hapki/Aiki principles.

Yes, we've already covered this. Are you following along? It's hard to have a discussion if you ignore what the preceding person has said. Either address or refute it or it needs to stand. Combat Hapkido is not Traditional Hapkido. You cannot and should not expect the two to look alike or have the same solutions to the same problems at hand.

He doesn't seem to move impressively well - "wow - I've got to learn that!" Why should we trust his opinion?

Address the system, not the man. Even Daniel has asked you what you thought about the art itself rather than talk over and over again about your perceived shortcomings of Pelligrini. But it appears you've never looked at what CH is at all other than a few internet clips of him so you simply don't have the base upon which to talk about what CH is or isn't. I have. I've watched the yellow/orange and green/purple belt programs several times and have taken notes about my impressions.

As for trusting his opinion, the same goes for any other ma teacher out there. You have to look at their art and their skill and decide if it is a good situation for you or not. As I said before, two people can look at the same scenario and have an entirely different outlook. And that's fine. The problem is that you ASSUME your outlook is universally correct for everyone, which it cannot be since martial arts are a personal tool with various physical and mental affinities.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Okay, the whole, "He calls it hapkido and that is dishonest/must be hapkido" argument needs to be dropped.

The reason is that the same logic can be applied to hapkido itself. Why did they name their art 合氣道 and throw in all those kicks and punches? It isn't really 合氣道 if it those, is it? And does it have an Omoto Kyo based philosophy? If not, then is it really 合氣道?

And what about Choi's credentials? They're ambiguous at best. Should I trust him? And is he not the font from which hapkido flows? But did he or Ji move like Ueshiba? If not (and not many did from what I understand), then he had no business founding a variant of 合氣道.

Obviously, I don't care about Choi's credentials or how similar to Ueshiba or Ueshiba's top students Choi's movement was. The man is dead and his system is well established and proven. Obviously, I don't care about how 合氣道 is pronounced or whether or not it was stolen from Ueshiba. If I did, I'd be at an Aikido school wearing a flowing hakama and looking down my nose at hapkido instead of taking it.

If you cannot get past the name issue, then you may as well hang it up. We all know that it isn't traditional hapkido. So does his target demographic, who probably aren't interested in traditional hapkido in the first place.

And come on; we practice an art with a pilfered name, pilfered techniques, and an ambiguously certified founder.

What give us the right whine when someone else returns the favor?

At least GMP doesn't put the 'hapkido taught in the Silla Kingdom and practiced by the hwarang' crap that I have seen on some HKD school websites into his literature.

Am I defending the guy?

No. But lets get off of the high horse about nomenclature and technique pilfering. Discuss the system. I genuinely do not know it and it seems to be enough of a hot topic that I'd like to see the system discussed on a technical level or on a 'it works or doesn't work and here's why' level.

Daniel
 

Kumbajah

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I'm not sure how or why you are doing the mental gymnastics to separate the man from the art he founded 20 years ago. - BTW he got his 1st dan in 1989 possibly 90 from Mike Wollmerhauser.

"In 1990, Grandmaster Pellegrini develooped his own style of Hapkido, called "Combat Hapkido" (Chon-Tu Kwan Hapkido in Korean). Although firmly rooted in Hapkido, it is considered an "eclectic" system because it contains elements from other fighting disciplines. In 1999 Combat Hapkido became the first non-traditional Hapkido style founded by an American to receive official "Kwan" recognition by the World Ki-Do Federation. In 1992 he founded the International Combat Hapkido Federation (ICHF), the governing body for his system. Today the ICHF has grown to over 250 affiliate schools in 15 countries, making it one of the largest Hapkido organizations in the world. (TKD Times Jan 2005, p.47)
"I started studying and researching Hapkido when I was already a 4th dan in Taekwondo. I became passionate about Hapkido for three reasons: Taekwondo was becoming more and more of a "sport" for children and young adults: the practical self defense side was very limited and I wanted an art that I could continue to practice in my senior years when my athletic abilities would greatly diminish. I found that Hapkido was suitable for my mature body, my personality, and my lifelong desire to teach the most realistic and effective self defense system." (GM P in BUDO International NOV/DEC 2004, p. 6)
"My decision to found my own style of Hapkido was not based on ego or the quest for glory. It was prompted by my belief that all science and technology must continue to advance and improve, not remain stagnant and become obsolete. It is called progress, which is the engine of survival of human civilization. BUDO International NOV/DEC 2004, p.6)
"Combat Hapkido, the system I founded in 1990, is a hybrid, eclectic system structured on the foundation of Hapkido. If you want to remodel, expand, or redecorate a house, it is not necessary nor wise to destroy the entire foundation. You can be creative, efficient, and practical in the changes you make, using the existing sound structure." (BUDO International NOV/DEC 2004,p.8 )
He by his own account used Hapkido as the base and considers his art to be a form of Hapkido, I feel I can judge that part of the art, not the BJJ ground fighting, or the Kali or any other part of CHKD.

So if he had poor Hapkido basics why would I believe he "made improvements" - Why is his system "better" than studying THKD - what is the basis of the trust I would be putting into him by studying his system.

BTW - I don't think Hapkido is for everyone - I don't think it's a turnkey solution. It's not what I am addressing.

It's a simple question - What gives his interpretation authority? If it's 9th dan - then Hapkido matters, If it's not why else would you believe him he doesn't move well for any martial art. Not Western or Eastern. So why would you study from a guy that started his art based on a art that he had a 1st or 2nd dan in at the time.

Daniel - Hapkido has nothing to do with Ueshiba - it's a Korean art based on Choi's teaching which he claimed came from DRAJJ. Many find the claim spurious but none doubted his martial prowess. It's why people sought him out. You should research it :)
 

jks9199

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Folks,
Let's be careful how we tread here, huh? Fraudbusting is against the rules, and hate fests aren't welcome, either. If you're just going to go in circles complaining and attacking, then I predict that you'll quickly find yourself in an unhappy place...
 

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