Christian Left vs. Christian Right

[shesulsa]

I started this thread because some Christians who do not support the GOP or the so-called "moral majority" or do not align themselves with the "Christian Right" become offended when we speak of the "Christian Right" in general terms.

I for one do not believe that all Christians are right-wing nor subscribe to the general moral majority, though I think the "Christian Right" is a group we refer to as the concensus of people who are pro-capital punishment, anti-abortion, anti-assisted suicide, etc.

Sound off if you call yourself Christian and either do or do not consider yourself part of the "Christian Right" and why.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

From other posts I've written, it's pretty obvious I should be here.

The most important message my faith has presented, over and over, is "Love your neighbor as thyself".

To me, this means I should care for other people, even if I don't know them, even if they are not particularly nice to me... it's my duty.

This ethic of compassion and brotherly love leads me to support, politically, a number of different values.

1) Support unions and unionization. Give your hardworking neighbors a chance to speak for themselves against large corporations that are more concerned about making more money than a living wage, excessive overtime, or health insurance for their families.

2) Support healthcare for all Americans, regardless of income. Yes, socialized healthcare. I'm trying to find out more about Denmark and how they do it so well there.

3) Against the death penalty. a) our legal system as made mistakes in the past and executed innocent people - that is on our hands. b) We were supposed to be moving away from this "eye for an eye" stuff.

4) Allow women control over their own reproductive health. I want my neighbor to be healthy and happy. Birth control eductation and safe-sex education will not make kids run out and have sex. But it will protect them.

5) Support welfare. A perfect system? No, but we know the world isn't perfect. Letting our neighbors starve - or their children starve - is unacceptible.

6) End pollution and environmental degredation. The needless destruction of the natural environment is a sin, quite frankly. We are making the lives of people living today - and future generations - more miserable because of our current practices and what we allow large groups and companies to get away with.

7) End hate crimes. Even those some profess to perform for religious reasons (i.e. killing homosexuals; murdering abortion doctors). No no no no no.

That's all for now....

 

[Touch Of Death]

I consider myself Christian-esque and I consider the Death penalty a bad move. The death penalty begats the death penalty. People will go to extremes to avoid it or worse yet use the old, "in for a penny in for a pound" philisophy and once again kill more people than needed for whatever situation. There was a scuicide in Britain not to long ago that also killed 30 people. It can be a goal for some. Its really only a detourant for sane clear headed people.
Sean

 

[Adept]

The death penalty might not be the greatest of deterrents, but it serves as punishment as well. It is also the ultimate prevention of recidivism.

Sorry to drag the thread off topic. I'm neither christian nor right or left oriented. I like to call myself an extremist, since I take some extreme left views and some extreme right views.

 

[Tgace]

On categorization....

We have seen the enemy - and it's us

11/9/2004
By MITCH ALBOM

Remember that kid in "The Sixth Sense" who saw dead people? America, based on the election, has become that kid. Only we see enemies. Wherever we look. And they frighten us.
Straight people see gays and fear they will turn their boys into sissies and their girls into Ellen DeGeneres. Gay people see straights and fear they want to "change them back" or legislate them out of existence.

The religious fear those less faithful will smash the Ten Commandments. The nonreligious fear those more faithful want to shove the Ten Commandments down their throats.

Conservatives see liberals and fear they want the whole country barefoot, communist and living on welfare. Liberals see conservatives and fear they want the whole country to look like "Leave It to Beaver."

Poor people see rich people and figure they must have scammed the system to get all they have. Rich people see poor people and think they must be scamming the system to get their tax dollars.

The pro-war crowd fears peaceniks will invite terrorists to our shores. The anti-war crowd fears hawks create new terrorists every day.

The pro-Bush crowd thinks the other side wants to destroy a faithful, honest public servant. The anti-Bush crowd thinks voters are being duped by a former frat boy who uses religious hot buttons to license his cold heart.

And around we go . . .

Straight people fear that "activist judges" will turn our country into a Key West toga party. Gays fear that if they can't go to judges, they'll never undo the discrimination locked into our system.

Religious types fear stem-cell researchers are on a slippery slope to baby killing. Stem-cell researchers fear religious types are on a slippery slope to the Crusades.

Conservatives see the "liberal" media as a place where minorities get jobs because they are minorities. Liberals see the "conservative media" as the home office for white males over 50.

Poor people get mad when rich people find ways not to pay their taxes. Rich people get mad when poor people don't have to pay taxes.

The pro-Bush crowd thinks his critics can't stand a man who is firm in his convictions. The anti-Bush crowd thinks his supporters are morons who admire stubbornness because it's easier on their brains.

The white majority fears that minorities are multiplying so fast, they will take over the country. The minorities fear the white majority will deny their existence to keep control of the country.

The people who never travel think the rest of the world can take a hike - who needs 'em? The people who always travel think the rest of the world is ready to take a hike - and that's what scares them.

Gun lovers see their critics as nerdy, liberal girlie men who only want to take away their rights. Gun critics see the gun-loving crowd as yahoos who would rather fire than switch.

Evangelical Christians feel the country was started by people like them, and it ought to stay that way. Evangelical critics feel the country was started by people escaping religious persecution - why do it again?

Conservatives hate that there are so many best-selling liberal books. Liberals hate that there are so many best-selling conservative books.

Pro-Bush types think America has been saved. Anti-Bush types think America has been sunk.

And there we are. We see enemies. Everywhere.

But here is the problem: We are looking at each other. And until we start seeing "fellow Americans," it won't matter who's in office. We'll destroy ourselves.


Detroit Free Press

 

[AnimEdge]

I think the death penilty is the greatest, but i am also a Texan
I believe in "Eye for a Eye" punishment, if a guy robs my house, i should get to go rob his, if he stabs me i shoudl get ta stab him, that knida thing, why does a crimal who rapes and kill people get to spend the rest of there life in a cell with cable and internet access and food and ect ect ect eh they should get the DP i think, but thats just me, i also think that WB shows on TV promote teen sex, but hey who listens right?

 

[shesulsa]

I like that, Tgace!

The us vs. them arguments are tired and outdated, I think. It's time we all see each other as people we respect and though might disagree, work towards tolerance rather than in-fighting and work to make the government work more for the people again.

We can reach out a hand to someone we don't agree with and open our minds. We can forgo legislation against rights in favor of legislation against waste.

Can we come together and forget who's left and who's right?

 

[Tgace]

I like that, Tgace!

The us vs. them arguments are tired and outdated, I think. It's time we all see each other as people we respect and though might disagree, work towards tolerance rather than in-fighting and work to make the government work more for the people again.

We can reach out a hand to someone we don't agree with and open our minds. We can forgo legislation against rights in favor of legislation against waste.

Can we come together and forget who's left and who's right?

When we make categories, we automatically put people into them or we place ourselves in them. We seem to have taken points of views and turned them into the equivalents of "gangs". People seem to be identifying themselves more with these "camps" than they are as countrymen.

Ideological Civil War II?? The geographic boundaries seem to be drawing along similar lines.

 

[TigerWoman]

I'm not crazy about labels about being "right" or "left". I think I'm all over that map. I also believe in treating your neighbor as yourself at least until they sneak into your house and rob you or say they are a better Christian and find fault with you and then I turn off. Sure, forgive your neighbor but not continue to take grief. And in that way, I won't turn the other cheek, guilty.

I think we should have capital punishment. There are arguments both ways for it being a deterrent or not. But if someone killed my kid, I would rather the people decide that and do the same, than for me to take justice in my own hands to do it. Such scum of the earth have no right to live and be supported by taxpayers even in prison. It is the best system, not flawless, but the best without being God ourselves.

I believe women should have rights about their own bodies. It is between God and you, not you and the government. I was age twenty in the era of back alley abortionists and so many women were butchered on those tables because it wasn't legal. I don't want to return there. As long as there are decent doctors willing to help women support their choices, the government or moral majority has no right to dictate their beliefs over a woman's own. Not in her shoes.
TW

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I also think getting into one "camp" or the other isn't helpful. At the start of the thread, though, it seemed like a good chance to explain to other people who automatically might group me in with them ("Christians") and then expound upon "our values", which are often diametrically opposed.

I'm really tired of people on TV, people I know, telling me what it must be that I think or believe in, because of a label that has connotations for them, rather than letting me tell them where I stand.

"Christian? You must hate queers!" Things like that that make me ill.

 

[heretic888]

Well, there's clearly a "left" side to Christianity....

groups like the Unitarian-Universalits, Religious Society of Friends, Liberal Catholics, and Gay/Lesbian Catholics suddenly come to mind.

Big difference is these guys don't have television channels and radio stations devoted to spewing their stuff out 24/7. That, and they don't control a considerable portion of our government.

 

[Ping898]

I never remember from one day to the next whether I am considered a left or right-sided Christian. The labels always confuse me, but anyways, I probably fall to the left side here based upon other views.
I second what most have already said, especially Feisty in terms of what should and shouldn't be happening. I guess my biggest issue with the current administration is I feel like they are trying to force Christian values on everyone and I don't like that because not everyone is a Christian and even those of us that are, not everyone interprets or believes exactly the same thing.
Like, I won't have an abortion, and will do everything to talk a friend or anyone else out of one, but will not deny them the right to have a abortion if morally they don't have a problem with it and will not stop being their friend if they have one.
One of my biggest fears is that this amendment the current christians with power are pushing to ban gay marriage will happen. As far as I am concerned marriage is 2 things, 1st a religious institution/sacrement etc, and 2nd a convient word we use in non-religious society to talk of the union of two people. People can get married in the eyes of the church and not in the state and in the eyes of the state and not the eyes of the church. I see no reasons why two gay people can't be married or unionized in some way and get the same state benefits as anyone else. But the religious fraction is pushing hard for that not to happen. I kind of feel like next they are going to go after Divorce, cause you know that remarrying violates various religious edicts as well.....and what about removing kids from home where there are two unmarried parents?...they are supposedl living in sin too...the religious groups in power scare me sometimes. I can't tell when they will feel like they've gotten enough:idunno:.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think the death penilty is the greatest, but i am also a Texan
I believe in "Eye for a Eye" punishment, if a guy robs my house, i should get to go rob his, if he stabs me i shoudl get ta stab him, that knida thing, why does a crimal who rapes and kill people get to spend the rest of there life in a cell with cable and internet access and food and ect ect ect eh they should get the DP i think, but thats just me, i also think that WB shows on TV promote teen sex, but hey who listens right?

"Eye for an Eye" is a call for restraint. It means if the guy robs your house, Killing him later might be a bit harsh. The Texan twist on it, is just that, a twist.
Sean

 

[heretic888]

I find it interesting that "Christians" claim to support capital punishment --- given the New Testament's attitude on such practices.

 

[Tgace]

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil" (Romans 13:3-4)

"Do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17).

And the Old Testament is clear on its stance.

 

[heretic888]

Because those are so clear-cut and obvious in their meaning.

 

[heretic888]

And the Old Testament is clear on its stance.

Ummm.... thou shalt not kill?? :uhyeah:

 

[Tgace]

"Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed, for in the image of God He made man" (Genesis 9:6)

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0131_Capital_Punishment.html

Murder, then, is not just a crime against man ... it is a crime against God who created man. For that reason, only the death of the murderer can satisfy God's justice. Capital punishment is detailed in many places in the Old Testament - Exodus 21:12-15; Leviticus 24:17-21; Numbers 35:9-34; Deuteronomy 21:1-9. It is also clearly affirmed in the New Testament by the Apostle Paul

Google is such a great tool.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.leaderu.com/issues/fabric/chap04.html

Christian Perspectives
The religious implications of the issue are profound. From beginning to end the Bible speaks of the death penalty and how it is to be used. God Himself used it to judge both individuals and nations, and He ordered judges, kings, and rulers to use it to maintain order and sovereignty. The Mosaic Law established death as the penalty for murder—not for killing, which is a different word in Hebrew, as it is in English (see Genesis 9:6). As in times of war, killing may be justified; but murder, on the other hand, is a crime to be punished by death.

Some have said that Jesus set aside the Old Testament law in the Sermon on the Mount by telling His followers to "turn the other cheek." But in His sermon, Jesus is telling them to leave matters of the law to the authorities; Christians are not to seek personal vengeance but to love one another—even their enemies.

Later, when He stopped the Jews from stoning the woman caught in adultery, as Kerby Anderson of Probe Ministries points out, Jesus is not making a statement about the law or the sentence of death. Rather, the point of the story is to show that Jesus recognized that the Pharisees were trying to trap Him between the Roman law and the Mosaic law. His brilliant response to the entrapment is not to deny the authority of judge and jury, but to say that no individual or group may take it upon themselves to kill another person at will.

Paul offered much the same counsel in saying,

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For [the legal authority] is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for [legal authority] does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil (Romans 13:3–4).
Paul recognizes the state’s authority to exact the death sentence, and in his appeal to the Roman Procurator, Festus, he said,

If I am an offender, or have committed anything deserving of death, I do not object to dying; but if there is nothing in these things of which these men accuse me, no one can deliver me to them (Acts 25:11).

 

[heretic888]

An intriguing statement concerning Paul.

Especially considering the Acts of the Apostles is a late 2nd century forgery (first referenced around 185 CE, and blatantly contradicting Paul's own accounts in Galatians)....,

and that the "rulers" Paul references are archones in the original Greek -- which have nothing at all to do with legal authorities, but with supernatural demon-powers which control the physical kenoma.