Choo choo train!

[Gyakuto149 158]

Having been forced to watch a number of Shotokan kata videos with ‘her indoors’, I’ve noticed a strange hissing noise many advanced teachers produce when performing kata. They sound like steam trains and it’s becomes extremely wearing after a few minutes.

Why do they do this? In my karate/swordsmanship practise, we were taught that one should hide one’s breathing cycle as much as possible because the best point to attack an enemy is when they are inhaling/at peak inspiration. Has anyone been taught this? Dave Lowry talks about hiding one’s respiratory cycle in one of his many books.

 

[wab25]

I did Shotokan for about 15 years....

One of the things I noticed is that they tend to over exaggerate motions and other movements. If you are teaching a class of elementary school kids.... you can easily see who is doing it right and who is doing it wrong... their movements do not line up with the rest.

Additionally, or in my view, more importantly.... they take small internal movements and make them really big. Everyone can see the big motion, and copy it. Not everyone sees that the big motion was a way to communicate and train a much smaller unseen motion. You have to study the large motions, and study the effect it has on your body... then reverse the process... initiate the large motion from the smaller internal movement.... then you can get rid of the large movement... but you still have the internal movements that you can use.

Everyone sees the large, low, extended stances commonly used in karate. These are used to teach you balance, and how to move. It forces you to change the way you take a step... you have to use different muscles, in a different order, to connect your body in the right way... in order to move. You have to do this while being conscious of your balance. When you understand what it is giving you, and how to do it... you no longer need the long low stances to achieve the effect. But, I for one, would have never figured out the internal motions without these long levers being added to show me what had to happen.

The misunderstanding is the part where people think the training drill is how you are supposed to fight. Some force their fighting to look like the kata.... others think the kata is separate from the fighting and in no way related... the kata is for teaching you how to move and use your body. You take the lessons there and apply them to you fighting.... which does not look like kata.

This breathing is another example of this. They are making it big and over exaggerated to make sure everyone is doing it right. They are doing it big so that you can study what happens internally and externally as you connect the breathing to the technique. Again, you are not supposed to fight this way... you are supposed to learn to breath this way, learn the inner mechanics, and then use those... throwing away the kata, but keeping the principles taught...

Its a very Shu-Ha-Ri thing. The loud choo choo train breathing is the Shu part... the hidden internal breathing you are talking about it the Ri part.

 

[Gyakuto149 158]

A very interesting take on it.

The one thing I notice about Shotokan is how ‘straight’ it is and there almost exclusive use of ‘go no sen’. Tai sabaki is rare and preemptive techniques rarer still. However, I think anyone can become very competent at Shotokan given sufficient instruction and hard work, whereas say, Wado Ryu, with which I’m very familiar, requires a certain…je ne sais quoi to become even vaguely good.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf148 13]

A very interesting take on it.

The one thing I notice about Shotokan is how ‘straight’ it is and there almost exclusive use of ‘go no sen’. Tai sabaki is rare and preemptive techniques rarer still. However, I think anyone can become very competent at Shotokan given sufficient instruction and hard work, whereas say, Wado Ryu, with which I’m very familiar, requires a certain…je ne sais quoi to become even vaguely good.

My experience sparring shotokan people (never trained it myself) is that all of them fight fairly linearly. It's a lot of letting one person attack, and avoiding that attack to prepare their own counterattack. Then just kind of rushing their own attack in when they see the opportunity. Again, I never trained it, but this was with brown belts to 3rd degree black belts that came from different schools in the NYC/NJ area to spar with us.

With that, it might be more important to make sure your breathing properly to be able to finish your combo, then worrying that your opponent will manage to use your breathing to mess up your pace.

 

[Gyakuto149 158]

Not a choo choo train in earshot and no screeching the kata’s name at the top of one’s lungs either. I suppose it’s what one is used to.

 

[Gyakuto149 158]

My experience sparring shotokan people (never trained it myself) is that all of them fight fairly linearly. It's a lot of letting one person attack, and avoiding that attack to prepare their own counterattack.

Yes this is ‘go no sen’ in Japanese martial speak and one of the ‘mittsu no sen’ (三つの先) or three initiatives!

Then just kind of rushing their own attack in when they see the opportunity.

That’s such a good observation.

With that, it might be more important to make sure your breathing properly to be able to finish your combo, then worrying that your opponent will manage to use your breathing to mess up your pace.

For fat, old and unfit Karateka, yes!

 

[wab25]

The first thing to realize about Shotokan is that there are many different denominations.... Its like saying, I study Karate.... yeah, what kind?.... Same thing with Shotokan.... what kind? I studied Kenkojuku style. The other thing to realize about it is that much of it in the US at least came from military members who spent a year or 2 in Japan, after we bombed it... and learned some part of Shotokan before coming back to the US as a full blown Master of the Ancient Art of Shotokan Karate....

The one thing I notice about Shotokan is how ‘straight’ it is and there almost exclusive use of ‘go no sen’.

Interesting... I would love to hear more explanation about what you were seeing.

My experience was that go no sen was where we spent most of our time, especially with beginners. You throw a lunge punch at my face, I step back into front stance executing upward block. Then I throw reverse punch to your exposed ribs... (please ignore my also exposed ribs....)

The second level was where you throw the lunge punch at my face, I step back into front stance, executing upward block and reverse punch at the same time.

The third level was where you throw the lunge punch at my face, I execute some type of tai sabaki, delivering a punch or other attack, as your punch finishes.

Did you see differently? Were you expecting to see these ideas expressed differently? If so, how? (genuinely interested here)

Tai sabaki is rare and preemptive techniques rarer still.

No preemptive techniques are from a miss understanding or too literal a miss translation.... "In Karate, there is no first attack." There are many translations of this precept. Most fall into the above category. So, most schools interpret that as wait for the other guy to draw first (just like the wild west where the good guy always waited for the bad guy to draw first). My personal take on this precept is sensen no sen - no one is first, since we both moved at the same time.... I just get there before you do....

Other translations, from Funakoshi, are "In Karate, there is no advantage to first attack." See how that changes things? For me it does not.... I am in sensen no sen.... it does not matter if you attack first, because we moved at the same time and I got there first. But, lots of Shotokan people I run into and trained with were stuck being cowboys.... make the other guy draw first, so that he is the bad guy. For me... I am going to win, that way I can write the story..... of coarse he swung first

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf148 13]

Yes this is ‘go no sen’ in Japanese martial speak and one of the ‘mittsu no sen’ (三つの先) or three initiatives!
View attachment 33615


That’s such a good observation.

For fat, old and unfit Karateka, yes!

I had to google go no sen, and wasn't 100% sure I got it (not familiar with most japanese terms). Tai sabaki I got and is one of my favorite things - that comic actually helps clarify it a lot.

 

[HighKick]

Having been forced to watch a number of Shotokan kata videos with ‘her indoors’, I’ve noticed a strange hissing noise many advanced teachers produce when performing kata. They sound like steam trains and it’s becomes extremely wearing after a few minutes.

Why do they do this? In my karate/swordsmanship practise, we were taught that one should hide one’s breathing cycle as much as possible because the best point to attack an enemy is when they are inhaling/at peak inspiration. Has anyone been taught this? Dave Lowry talks about hiding one’s respiratory cycle in one of his many books.

I see/hear no issue in the video, just a good, forceful yet (body) relaxed exhale. I have heard Much worse.

 

[opr1945147 33]

approximately 35 years one of my sons and I took classes in what was called "American Eagle Karate" (I think he made the name up himself). It was taught by a minister twice a week for an hour. It was a community service for him. It cost us next to nothing. After we were there for about a year he took a job in New Jersey. I am in Michigan 700 miles west of New Jersey. He referred to our color belt ranks as "Gup" which I understand is Korean (Tang soo do, Tae kwon do?). The Katas we learned, first couple any way, were strikingly similar to the the Shotokan kata videos in post number 1.

Is there a connection between Korean Martial Arts and Shotokan (Okinawan) Karate?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf148 13]

approximately 35 years one of my sons and I took classes in what was called "American Eagle Karate" (I think he made the name up himself). It was taught by a minister twice a week for an hour. It was a community service for him. It cost us next to nothing. After we were there for about a year he took a job in New Jersey. I am in Michigan 700 miles west of New Jersey. He referred to our color belt ranks as "Gup" which I understand is Korean (Tang soo do, Tae kwon do?). The Katas we learned, first couple any way, were strikingly similar to the the Shotokan kata videos in post number 1.

Is there a connection between Korean Martial Arts and Shotokan (Okinawan) Karate?

Short answer: Yes. TKD's founders were shotokan practitioners who tried to 'koreanize' the art. Long answer will have to be provided by someone else (maybe @Dirty Dog, @skribs or @andyjeffries) since that's far from my area of expertise.

 

[Gyakuto149 158]

approximately 35 years one of my sons and I took classes in what was called "American Eagle Karate" (I think he made the name up himself). It was taught by a minister twice a week for an hour. It was a community service for him. It cost us next to nothing. After we were there for about a year he took a job in New Jersey. I am in Michigan 700 miles west of New Jersey. He referred to our color belt ranks as "Gup" which I understand is Korean (Tang soo do, Tae kwon do?). The Katas we learned, first couple any way, were strikingly similar to the the Shotokan kata videos in post number 1.

Is there a connection between Korean Martial Arts and Shotokan (Okinawan) Karate?

Funnily enough, I was watching this last night. Tang Soo Do kata appear identical to Shotokan!

 

[Same Trick94 45]

A very interesting take on it.

The one thing I notice about Shotokan is how ‘straight’ it is and there almost exclusive use of ‘go no sen’. Tai sabaki is rare and preemptive techniques rarer still. However, I think anyone can become very competent at Shotokan given sufficient instruction and hard work, whereas say, Wado Ryu, with which I’m very familiar, requires a certain…je ne sais quoi to become even vaguely good.

It’s said Shotokan roots was somewhat inspired by the Jigen-ryu school as one of Funakoshis main teachers(Asato) was trained in that sword school.
Tai sabaki is quite a thing in the related Shotokai school.

 

[Same Trick94 45]

Funnily enough, I was watching this last night. Tang Soo Do kata appear identical to Shotokan!

It stem from the school opened in Tokyo Korean district by one of Funakoshis students , where Gichin Funakoshi sometimes visited to teach

 

[SahBumNimRush1]

Various kwans had differing influences, but yes, it is my understanding that Shotokan, Shito Ryu, and Shudokan karate are all influences on my art. Also, Taijiquan. Prior to the liberation of Korea under the Japanese occupation, there were a small number of Koreans who obtained significant dan rank in Shito Ryu and Shudokan, as well as Shotokan schools in Korea. The 1948 text lists the following forms as part of the curriculum:

Pyeongan 1-5
Naihanchi 1-3
Jitte
Passai
Chinto
Sorim Jangkwon
Kongsankun
Roahai
Osipsabo (Gojushiho)
Jion
Wanshu (Empi)
Sanchin
Jeongjang (Tensho)
Seisan
Se-Siyan (Seiunchin)
Seipai
Sanseiru
Pechurin
Sochin
Saifa
Kururunfa
Isibsa (Niseishi)
Unsu
Damtoe (Tantui)
Taegukkwon (taijiquan)

As you can see, there are more influences than merely shotokan here, as there are forms listed beyond the Shotokan curriculum, including Taijiquan and Tantui, as well as Shito Ryu and Shudokan. Again, this is from the 1948 text, and the curriculum underwent many changes in the following decades.

 

[HighKick]

approximately 35 years one of my sons and I took classes in what was called "American Eagle Karate" (I think he made the name up himself). It was taught by a minister twice a week for an hour. It was a community service for him. It cost us next to nothing. After we were there for about a year he took a job in New Jersey. I am in Michigan 700 miles west of New Jersey. He referred to our color belt ranks as "Gup" which I understand is Korean (Tang soo do, Tae kwon do?). The Katas we learned, first couple any way, were strikingly similar to the the Shotokan kata videos in post number 1.

Is there a connection between Korean Martial Arts and Shotokan (Okinawan) Karate?

Sounds like the Pinan forms of MDK-TKD or TSD. Near identical to the Heian forms in Shotokan.

 

[Buka52 4]

There were a lot of Shotokan tournament fighters in New England in the seventies and eighties. I don’t remember what kind of Shotokan, but I remember them quite well.

They all had a similar fighting style. Punch a hole right through your body until their fist came out your back, then give the finger to your dojo-mates sitting on the sidelines to tell them “You’re next.”

I loved the Shotokan fighters back then. It sucked fighting them, but it was a whole lot of fun.

There was a ton of Tang Soo Do in New England, too. I spent a lot of time training and teaching in Tang Soo dojos over the years. Not teaching Tang Soo, just fighting and kicking.

I learned a lot from them.

 

[Same Trick94 45]

Various kwans had differing influences, but yes, it is my understanding that Shotokan, Shito Ryu, and Shudokan karate are all influences on my art. Also, Taijiquan. Prior to the liberation of Korea under the Japanese occupation, there were a small number of Koreans who obtained significant dan rank in Shito Ryu and Shudokan, as well as Shotokan schools in Korea. The 1948 text lists the following forms as part of the curriculum:

Pyeongan 1-5
Naihanchi 1-3
Jitte
Passai
Chinto
Sorim Jangkwon
Kongsankun
Roahai
Osipsabo (Gojushiho)
Jion
Wanshu (Empi)
Sanchin
Jeongjang (Tensho)
Seisan
Se-Siyan (Seiunchin)
Seipai
Sanseiru
Pechurin
Sochin
Saifa
Kururunfa
Isibsa (Niseishi)
Unsu
Damtoe (Tantui)
Taegukkwon (taijiquan)

As you can see, there are more influences than merely shotokan here, as there are forms listed beyond the Shotokan curriculum, including Taijiquan and Tantui, as well as Shito Ryu and Shudokan. Again, this is from the 1948 text, and the curriculum underwent many changes in the following decades.

That’s right, the funakosh inspired dojo in Korean district of Tokyo gradually invited other instructors as example Gogen Yamagushi , with that teachers from Gichin Funakoshis dojo stopped teaching there.
It was in that Korean district dojo Masatoshi Oyama (who was Korean) first learned in Funakoshis style of karate(Shotokan)

 

[SahBumNimRush1]

That’s right, the funakosh inspired dojo in Korean district of Tokyo gradually invited other instructors as example Gogen Yamagushi , with that teachers from Gichin Funakoshis dojo stopped teaching there.
It was in that Korean district dojo Masatoshi Oyama (who was Korean) first learned in Funakoshis style of karate(Shotokan)

I am unfamiliar with this dojo. Is this where Byung Ro-Jik and/or Lee Won Kuk studied and earned dan rank in Shotokan? I know Byung Ro-Jik also studied under Kenwa Mabuni. I know this would have been all in the 1940's, and I am unfamiliar with a "Korean District" in Tokyo at that time. Understand I am not contradicting you, merely asking, as I am unfamiliar with it.

 

[HighKick]

Various kwans had differing influences, but yes, it is my understanding that Shotokan, Shito Ryu, and Shudokan karate are all influences on my art. Also, Taijiquan. Prior to the liberation of Korea under the Japanese occupation, there were a small number of Koreans who obtained significant dan rank in Shito Ryu and Shudokan, as well as Shotokan schools in Korea. The 1948 text lists the following forms as part of the curriculum:

Pyeongan 1-5
Naihanchi 1-3
Jitte
Passai
Chinto
Sorim Jangkwon
Kongsankun
Roahai
Osipsabo (Gojushiho)
Jion
Wanshu (Empi)
Sanchin
Jeongjang (Tensho)
Seisan
Se-Siyan (Seiunchin)
Seipai
Sanseiru
Pechurin
Sochin
Saifa
Kururunfa
Isibsa (Niseishi)
Unsu
Damtoe (Tantui)
Taegukkwon (taijiquan)

As you can see, there are more influences than merely shotokan here, as there are forms listed beyond the Shotokan curriculum, including Taijiquan and Tantui, as well as Shito Ryu and Shudokan. Again, this is from the 1948 text, and the curriculum underwent many changes in the following decades.

Very cool. And a great chance to show the parallel in many Korean styles.

Pyeongan 1-5 - Often wrtten Pinan or Heian
Naihanchi 1-3 - Often done exactly the same way in TKD/TSD and Shotokan
Jitte - Often written Jitae - done in TKD/TSD
Passai - Often written Bassai - First BB form inTKD
Chinto - Often written Ginto - MDK and TSD
Sorim Jangkwon
Kongsankun - Often written Kong Sang Koon - MDK & TSD
Roahai - MDK & TSD
Osipsabo (Gojushiho)
Jion - MDK & TSD
Wanshu (Empi) - MDK & TSD
Sanchin - MDK & TSD
Jeongjang (Tensho)
Seisan - MDK & TSD
Se-Siyan (Seiunchin)
Seipai
Sanseiru
Pechurin
Sochin
Saifa
Kururunfa
Isibsa (Niseishi)
Unsu
Damtoe (Tantui)
Taegukkwon (taijiquan)