Chi and orientalism.

[Prince_Alarming]

As some found the discussion on a certain thread interesting, even with an unwelcome visitor, I thought I'd start a new thread on the same subject, without our unwelcome guest. The thing is, belief and use of in chi on the part of Western mankind can be interpreted as a form of orientalism, much like the japonisme movement in the 19th century. Now, this is not always a good thing. Edward Saïd, for instance, describes orientalism as part of a system of knowledge (epistemology) that is in fact intended to control and subjugate Oriental persons. Later scholarship often describes the practice as a form of cultural appropriation. I try not to use the term 'cultural appropriation' too often because it's regarded by scholars largely as a bad thing, and I take a more indulgent view- it is less that one wishes to appropriate cultural forms, but more that one genuinely admires oriental cultures and wishes to learn some of their ideas. There are different approaches. As I said in the other thread

I, for instance do a lot of ink drawing, for instance, but I do it with a western brush and reed pen and try to make it Welsh, not Japanese.[.quote]
I stated also that my personal approach is to attempt to share oriental knowledge- the ideas- without necessarily using the physical form of the object itself- which in academia one would in any case call plagiarism. The issue with this is that I absolutely love the kata of wado ryu karate, and they constitute an oriental form in a metaphysical sense. Personally, I think it's far more exclusionist to say 'No! you cannot do oriental martial arts! You must do your macho Western boxing, which I feel contains a whole set of assumptions which are deeply problematic, for instance the foul Western superstition I encountered as a teenager on the part of my peers that oriental men are somehow effeminate, which is obviously an awful thing to think.
Broadly speaking, I think that being aware of the issues and dealing with them in a way that one personally feels avoiding cultural appropriation goes a long way. @

windwalker099.​

has said in private that his perspective is that one actually joins an eastern culture when one participates, humbly and reverently I would assume, in their cultural form.
I would love to hear your perspectives on this issue, which I feel is far thornier than one would imagine.

 

[Xue Sheng]

best definition of Qi come from my wife
Strong Qi you are healthy
Weak Qi you are sick
No Qi you are dead

China does not compartmentalize things like we do in the west, Qi is not separate from the body and heath it just is, not magical, just energy

To me, our nerves fire with electricity we have energy in our bodies that comes from food, water and air. That is how I see Qi

As far as Orientalism - style, artefacts, or traits considered characteristic of the peoples and cultures of Asia.

It is no more Orientalism than taking a kung fu class. Or from a possible Chinese perspective, since qi and living are pretty much the same, it is no more Orientalism eating a hamburger is Americanism

 

[Prince_Alarming]

It is no more Orientalism than taking a kung fu class

Which is precisely what I'm worried about. I do a lot of kata, but when I'm not in class I don't wear a gi and I don't pinch bits of eastern culture apart from the kata. I'm worried that my participation in Oriental martial arts might be considered offensive in Asia. @windwalker099 has pointed out that in going to karate class, you're not appropriating Eastern culture, you're participating in it, which is a fair point. But a lot of westerners, our departed unwelcome guest included, see chi as something rather similar to the force in star wars, which is not as far as I'm aware the original intention.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

As for me, I look at a lot of Chinese and Japanese painting, and I think that comes over in my work

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Qi - your current body condition.
Strong Qi - after workout, you feel great.
Weak Qi - after workout, you feel tired.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Yeah, thought as much. Not a mystical energy force that permeates the whole of creation at all.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Which is precisely what I'm worried about. I do a lot of kata, but when I'm not in class I don't wear a gi and I don't pinch bits of eastern culture apart from the kata. I'm worried that my participation in Oriental martial arts might be considered offensive in Asia. @windwalker099 has pointed out that in going to karate class, you're not appropriating Eastern culture, you're participating in it, which is a fair point. But a lot of westerners, our departed unwelcome guest included, see chi as something rather similar to the force in star wars, which is not as far as I'm aware the original intention.

You are not offending anyone by training a martial art, not matter how you train. You are not appropriating Eastern Culture.

OK, Walk into a dojo (Japanese) and go on the mat with your Shoes on, then they might be upset, offended....doubtful. Walk onto a Guan (Chinese) and go on the floor with your shoes on, they likely won't even notice. There are Gis in Japan, many train in street clothes in to train China. I use to train Sanda, the version the Chinese police train. My teacher was from Harbin China, did not give a hoot about Qi or culture or uniforms, only cared about training...hard damn training. My Taijiquan Shifu, from Hong Kong...... Didn't even want people bowing and always went by his first name and we never wore uniforms. Talk about qi and energy and did some qigong training but there was never any concern about appropriating Eastern Culture. My current Wing Chun shifu, (Hong Kong) wants us to bow as we enter the kwoon to the picture of his teacher and to him, and he does have us in sort of a uniform, but he wold not be offended if I trained in regular clothes.... he would ask me why I don't have the uniform...but offended...nope..... for that matter, in the summer, if you want, you can wear shorts to train in, just need the school t-shirt and the sash.... and we all have the same color sash....heck there are days he forgets to bow at the beginning of class.

For that matter when you say Eastern Culture, what are you talking about? The culture can be vastly different from country to country, and for that matter there are differences between provinces too.

A few years back there was a big deal made out of calling someone "Oriental". It was deemed a racist slur. However my wife, from Beijing, My Sanda shifu from Harbin, my taijiquan shifu from Hong Kong and other friend I had from mainland China thought that was ridiculous. It turned out it was something brought about by what is referred to as ABCs (American Born Chinese). And the mainland Chinese I knew didn't care at all.

Bottomline I wouldn't worry about it

 

[isshinryuronin]

The issue of "Orientalism" and "cultural appropriation" is IMO a total non-issue. "Appropriation" often does have a negative connotation of taking for one's personal benefit. But why else would one appropriate anything? The negative part is taking and changing a thing, keeping the label but mutating it into something else. A type of misrepresentation. In many cases I think this is what happened to "chi."

I like traditional Japanese homes, the clean lines and minimalism. If I could, my home would replicate this style, even down to the landscaping. It's pleasing to me. Not because I am pretending to be Japanese. I like Indian food but never thought of identifying as a Hindu, Sikh or Zoroastrian. Hawaiian shirts are popular at times. They are colorful and airy, just right for summer. Is any of this cultural appropriation? I suppose to a point it is, but I don't see it as bad. Rather it's a compliment to the culture. As long as it's not meant to demean or negatively misrepresent the culture I see nothing wrong with it.

Certainly, the entire history of Oriental TMA is built on "appropriation," being modified to fit into the needs of the various cultures from N. China > S. China > Okinawa > Japan > USA/Western culture and Korea. But this whole "appropriation" thing seems to be mainly a "woke-istic" burr up the Western ****. I don't think such a consideration crossed the Japanese psyche when they adopted Western style beds and toilets, not to mention McDonald's. In fact, it's part of the Japanese way to adopt that which is useful, regardless of its origin. I think there's even a specific term for this (a part of kaizen?). Practicality knows no borders.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Walk into a dojo (Japanese) and go on the mat with your Shoes on, then they might be upset, offended....doubtful. Walk onto a Guan (Chinese) and go on the floor with your shoes on, they likely won't even notice

When I had my commercial school, I won't allow anybody to walk into my school without shoes on.

The oriental philosophy such as:

- "The nail that sticks out get hammered down".
- "If you promote 1 person, you will upset the rest of the group."

are very bad for the modern society. Most of the Confucious philosophy served for the ruling class only.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How should you apply your Qi when you throw 5 punches in 1 second? The correct way should be you exhale 1/6 air at each punch. After 5 punches, you should still have 1/6 air in your lung.

How many Qi master who truly understand this?

 

[drewtoby]

Adding my limited experience to this thread - martial arts are very much an international experience. Arts with western influences are enjoyed in the east as well.

As for the cultural component, it adds necessary context to the art. Anyone not appreciative of said cultural influences would, in theory, find a different art, as there are plenty to choose from.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The worst part of the oriental philosophy is "I know something, but I won't share."

One day my SC teacher was late for his class. His young brother started his class. When my teacher arrived and saw what his brother taught in his class, my teacher slapped on his brother's face and said, "How dare are you to teach this technique to someone outside of our family".

Today, after my SC teacher had passed away, I have to say this is bad, very bad indeed.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When my teacher arrived and saw what his brother taught in his class, my teacher slapped on his brother's face and said, "How dare are you to teach this technique to someone outside of our family".

I've got a soft spot for the old school guys. May not be likable but did not compromise, although it's probably a good thing this sort of attitude is no longer common. IMO, he did not handle the situation well. Big bro sounds like a bully. But if the family wants to keep some techniques secret, IMO, that's their right. It's very likely the students didn't even know they were learning something "secret."

OK, Walk into a dojo (Japanese) and go on the mat with your Shoes on, then they might be upset, offended....doubtful.

In the early 1970's I spent a short time in Japanese Ju Jitsu. The sensei was very old school Japanese and was a wiry, tough SOB, a champion in the days when injuries were common in competition. One student had broken his foot and was on crutches. Sensei called him up on the mat for some reason, so he hopped onto the mat on his good foot, which happen to have a shoe on it. Sensei was NOT happy and made it known. The student made some remark like, "What am I supposed to do, fly?" He was instantly banished. Some of those old guys just didn't take any sh*t. Sort of like Kill Bill's Master Pei. I've come across a few of those old, high-ranked sensei in my time. You did not want to get on their bad side.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's very likely the students didn't even know they were learning something "secret."

For beginners, they may not be able to tell what "secret" mean. For advance students, it means a lot. In the throwing art, any "door opening move" are always considered as "secret". When you apply a "door opening move", no matter how your opponent may respond, you always have next move ready for him. The "door opening move" is like the root of a tree. It can full grow into a big tree. How many of those trees that you can grow, it defines how deep that you may understand the throwing art.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

oooh, secret techniques, I'm happy with how this thread is going