Centerline Theory and Wing Chun Mindset: Where it works and doesn't?

[Jake104]

With a forwadly angle-in collapsing and crumbling FigA structure and taking the CL and occupying it. Couldn't help myself. Oh look CL and forward intent at play go figures.. You notice I didn't say pak the arm punch this or that.. Cause I'm taught to fight the body not arm.. Now I have the CL occupied I cans do what I want. I could elbow, throw, knee what ever I like. Cause I have position.. Chi Sao teaches this

 

[Jake104]

Man I just can't help myself today. I'm posting like a mad man.. Ok so here's a PB vid he angles off quite a bit. Actually in kind of the same way I just described from the clinch.. Problem most non WC MMA OR good grapplers have with what he's doing is.. He keeps pushing the opponent away.. For a Good fighter they look at that like he's just setting them up for an over hand or they'll just grab him and clinch him up..IMO He's putting himself in the wrong range for WC to effectively work against someone other than another WC guy.... My problem with it, is WC is a close range art. If I can get a bridge why push you away and have to start all over again? Once I have a bridge it's time to go to work and end it? I have an open mind so maybe he's training a specific skill? What I described earlier (which is similar to what PB is doing) from Kung fu wangs drawing is actual application.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

With a forwadly angle-in collapsing and crumbling FigA structure and taking the CL and occupying it.

What's your solution for this "double over hooks"?

 

[talktalk]

WC center line - stand square and it easily target .

Side ways and cut in center line


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[KPM]

My problem with it, is WC is a close range art. If I can get a bridge why push you away and have to start all over again? Once I have a bridge it's time to go to work and end it? I have an open mind so maybe he's training a specific skill?

---I agree with you! And this is the approach of the Silat I have studied...... 1. enter/close/bridge, 2. disrupt/damage, 3. put him on the ground, 4. finish him (step 1 &2 may happen at the same time and step 3 & 4 may happen at the same time). Too many in WC never seem to get past step 1, at least not in the way they train. They bridge and hit....do lots of Chi Sau focused on bridging and hitting....but few actually work to manipulate the body and balance to disrupt and proceed to an actual finish. They count on their lightening fast chain punches to put the guy down. Reality doesn't always work that way. Now granted, many WC people will tell you that they actually do what I have described in Silat, and some probably do. But there is no denying that most of the training clips we see and instructional videos we sell don't go past step 1.

---But Jake go back and read earlier in this thread. We started out talking about how the use of the centerline differs when facing an unarmed opponent rather than an opponent armed with a knife.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The reasons that you want to build a bridge are to:

1. pull your opponent's body toward you while you punch him to achieve a head on collision.
2. guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm so when you punch him, he has no arm to block you.
3. create a clinch and take him down.

Will there be any other reason that you want to build an arm bridge?

 

[Argus]

Okay, played a little more with this (knife defense) thing yesterday.

I still couldn't get the traditional U-shape knife tapping thing to work well. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I simply miss or take too long with my parries. The cross-side tan/gan is still just awkward for me. Going to keep practicing and see if I can't make it functional, though.

What I did have success with was simply grabbing the knife arm/hand in any way possible, and then transitioning into a lock or disarm. And I'm not even good at locks/disarms
I also used the "dog catcher" technique... At least, I think that's what it is. I'm assuming it's basically the same as the Gracie technique shown here?

I tried looking up the "dog catcher" and didn't find much. I did see someone using a reverse tan in conjunction with a gan, even for your standard high line thrusts, and cutting down into the traditional U-pattern to get to the outside. That's very similar to the gracie technique, and I could see how it would potentially easier to intercept with.

 

[wckf92]

Will there be any other reason that you want to build an arm bridge?

Because it looks totally cool and because Donnie Yen does it. [emoji13]


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[Argus]

The reasons that you want to build a bridge are to:

1. pull your opponent's body toward you while you punch him to achieve a head on collision.
2. guide your opponent's leading arm to jam his back arm so when you punch him, he has no arm to block you.
3. create a clinch and take him down.

Will there be any other reason that you want to build an arm bridge?

I can think of a few more:
4. feel where your opponent's arm is and feel when a hole (opening) is created, or when his body swings around for the opposite hand to come in.
5. use a technique to remove his arm in order to make room for your own attack. This can be done with more techniques than just pulling, obviously; you can slap, press, jerk, jam, lift, etc.
6. transition into various locks and arm-locks that may not fit your definition of "clinching"
7. immobilise your opponent's arm should it contain a weapon
8. disarm your opponent, should he have a weapon
9. pin his arms while you attack, so that he doesn't have a chance to retaliate. This is similar to your second point, but can can be done in many more ways than just jamming the back arm with the front.

etc. etc.

I'm sure you can think of many more advantages yet, if you think broadly enough. Honestly, most true reasons are too broad and inter-related to be accurately represented in a numbered list. These are, at best, examples, rather than reasons.

 

[Juany118]

I may be misunderstanding but I believe there is a misunderstanding of the centerline concept here, at least in my lineage it would be a misunderstanding.

----I don't know about others on the thread, but I understand exactly what you described. That is how I view the centerline as well.

Since he has a knife I am not thinking gan sau, I am thinking lap sau to the outside, similar to "chasing" in Kali. I do this because if I am going to strike I want that knife trapped, even if but for a moment so my striking arm doesn't get cut. When I strike it is to my opponents centerline and I am zoning. Additionally the lap can also easily be turned into a wrist lock if I think I have a legit chance to disarm the opponent. All of this is, due to my training, still following centerline theory.

----But this is a bit risky as well. You won't have nearly as good control over the weapon compared to using both hands/arms. There are many times when facing an edged weapon where you want to face fully towards the oncoming attacking limb and use both hands. Now you are not directed at the opponent's centerline as you described it and so many would say you are now violating Wing Chun's centerline theory. I think that is the crux of the issue that Argus was talking about when he started this thread.

First, against a blade, you accept the STRONG possibility you will get cut. Second, at least how I am taught, you initially face fully of course but you get out of that killbox ASAP. You "chase" the blade (lap sau in my example) and zone to the side of the arm that holds the blade, basically help them move the blade and get the heck out of the way at the same time. By "zoning" I mean moving on an angle IN towards my opponent, roughly 45 degrees to the appropriate flank. I am still fully facing my opponent capable of attacking his center.

As for the the lock I also don't see how it violates because my Lineage (via Grand Master Cheung) has Chin Na. Here are a few things you can do which I think would be compliant... but again this is only if you dang well confident to get the lock. Note all of these are risky but it's always risky to fight a knife wielder open handed. (note this is still using the zoning noted above)

1. strip the knife. If the blade is large enough you can simply slap/palm strike the flat of the blade and it will drop. Then attack as normal. Riskest unless you train it a lot, I wouldn't even think about this without my Kali training on top of it.
2. strip the knife safer. Using both hands control the wrist and elbow. He will try to pull the arm free, usually back towards his body/center. Let him but keep control then direct the blade to his torso or leg and then push the blade hard against him stripping it (you can do this with the flat or the point or the edge and cut him even.) I have done this full speed in training, it's easier than it sounds once you get used to applying the locks correctly.
3. You can also simply lock the arm and then kick him in the knee, or if you lock the wrist perform an elbow break, (I prefer elbow strikes for that). The video I will link below will actually give unarmed examples that I think are WC complaint.

I think I missed one thing in my description btw. In my WC it is not limited to attacking my opponent's center, it's also about disrupting it. So If I control the enemies arm and with a kick to the knee get him down on one knee, why punch to his center when I can stomp his ankle and maintain control. Now maybe it's because my Sifu teaches WC he has used operationally in real world fights but I think, sometimes, WC practitioners can become almost obsessed with attacking the opponent's center and forget that sometimes the fight can be won faster simply by disrupting it and then taking advantage of the opportunities that provides.

(not the best video but I think it gets the points across better than my meager descriptions.)

 

[Juany118]

Okay, played a little more with this (knife defense) thing yesterday.

I still couldn't get the traditional U-shape knife tapping thing to work well. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I simply miss or take too long with my parries. The cross-side tan/gan is still just awkward for me. Going to keep practicing and see if I can't make it functional, though.

What I did have success with was simply grabbing the knife arm/hand in any way possible, and then transitioning into a lock or disarm. And I'm not even good at locks/disarms
I also used the "dog catcher" technique... At least, I think that's what it is. I'm assuming it's basically the same as the Gracie technique shown here?

I tried looking up the "dog catcher" and didn't find much. I did see someone using a reverse tan in conjunction with a gan, even for your standard high line thrusts, and cutting down into the traditional U-pattern to get to the outside. That's very similar to the gracie technique, and I could see how it would potentially easier to intercept with.

That is what I was describing before. I think the issue you may be having, in the WC mindset is that you are focused on what we do in empty hand. Those techniques will simply get you cut BUT WC has other techniques that follow what FMA says regarding an open hand vs a knife..."the hand chases the blade". Since I study both, my mind rather quickly takes the Kali mindset to WC. Here is an example of how Kali may deal with a knife attack (there are a lot more) and I think the principles are more easily adapted to WC techniques than BJJ.

 

[Argus]

That is what I was describing before. I think the issue you may be having, in the WC mindset is that you are focused on what we do in empty hand. Those techniques will simply get you cut BUT WC has other techniques that follow what FMA says regarding an open hand vs a knife..."the hand chases the blade". Since I study both, my mind rather quickly takes the Kali mindset to WC. Here is an example of how Kali may deal with a knife attack (there are a lot more) and I think the principles are more easily adapted to WC techniques than BJJ.

Yep. I have done some FMA as well. Actually, I think I need to work on my knife tapping in an FMA sense also, as I haven't quite got it to be functional. It is still awkward and slow for me.

One thing Tim Waid does in that video is he really uses his footwork to get completely off-line. That's something I don't do enough of, perhaps. But seems like a double-edged sword; I can't move my whole body nearly as quickly as my opponent can redirect the knife, so it's very hard to keep up.

I just made a thread on this topic in the FMA forums, actually, so feel free to respond there

I definitely am in the habit of "less is more"/"subtle movement" from WC, where we don't use as big of motions to get out of the way or redirect something, but those large motions seem to be more necessary when weapons are involved. That presents a whole new challenge of actually getting where you need to be in time, though; I usually wind up resorting to smaller motions to keep up with an opponent, but they won't quite be enough to stop or redirect the knife in that case.

 

[Juany118]

1. enter/close/bridge, 2. disrupt/damage, 3. put him on the ground, 4. finish him (step 1 &2 may happen at the same time and step 3 & 4 may happen at the same time). Too many in WC never seem to get past step 1, at least not in the way they train. They bridge and hit....do lots of Chi Sau focused on bridging and hitting....but few actually work to manipulate the body and balance to disrupt and proceed to an actual finish. They count on their lightening fast chain punches to put the guy down. Reality doesn't always work that way. Now granted, many WC people will tell you that they actually do what I have described in Silat, and some probably do. But there is no denying that most of the training clips we see and instructional videos we sell don't go past step 1.

---But Jake go back and read earlier in this thread. We started out talking about how the use of the centerline differs when facing an unarmed opponent rather than an opponent armed with a knife.

Exactly. I think however your first point is responsible for the second. I once heard a Wing Chun Sifu morn that WC has become a "Chi Sau culture." People get focused on Chi Sau, which leads to focusing on being "nose to nose" with your opponent, open a path and chain punch. They don't zone to the "blind side" of the opponent, which is actually a core tenet in the WC school I study in. Because of this they may not see but they act as if the opponent's center line runs down the front of their body instead of through the body. Just my 2 cents on a possible reason.

 

[Juany118]

Yep. I have done some FMA as well. Actually, I think I need to work on my knife tapping in an FMA sense also, as I haven't quite got it to be functional. It is still awkward and slow for me.

One thing Tim Waid does in that video is he really uses his footwork to get completely off-line. That's something I don't do enough of, perhaps. But seems like a double-edged sword; I can't move my whole body nearly as quickly as my opponent can redirect the knife, so it's very hard to keep up.

I just made a thread on this topic in the FMA forums, actually, so feel free to respond there

I definitely am in the habit of "less is more"/"subtle movement" from WC, where we don't use as big of motions to get out of the way or redirect something, but those large motions seem to be more necessary when weapons are involved. That presents a whole new challenge of actually getting where you need to be in time, though; I usually wind up resorting to smaller motions to keep up with an opponent, but they won't quite be enough to stop or redirect the knife in that case.

One of the things I find most interesting about FMA footwork is how it changes. When both are unarmed it is little different than my Wing Chun. When moving between Largo, Medio and Corto, as different weapons get adding into the mix etc the foot work "opens up". The angles are still largely the same the "size" of the steps do indeed change. The weapon adds range and since a well balanced weapon, especially a knife, can change direction as quickly as a fist you need the bigger steps. In my experience though you have to keep the hand motions tighter though because like Tim notes in the video, there is still the other hand that can be coming at you and you have to be prepared to cover it.

I will definitely check out your other thread btw.

 

[talktalk]

When talking about weapons such as knife it is dangerous no nonsense don't go against it just look at this clip will explain a lot reality means a lot why what you have trained did help out or useless ... Think over again

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1022028564513440

 

[Juany118]

When talking about weapons such as knife it is dangerous no nonsense don't go against it just look at this clip will explain a lot reality means a lot why what you have trained did help out or useless ... Think over again

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1022028564513440

In real life you may well find yourself having NO CHOICE. If you are training for honest to goodness self defense and not simply for love of the Martial Arts you need to prepare for this. Knives are everywhere. I would say over 50% of the people I encounter (and have a legal reason to pat down or arrest) had either a knife or one of those folding "box cutters" on them. So the point is to make sure you are training hard and realistically to address the issue. The other issue to accept the fact there is a DAMN good chance you are going to get cut regardless of how hard you train. The trick is to make sure you "just" get cut.

I have arrived on scenes where people have "just" been cut and are walking around, talking etc. They go to the hospital, get some stitches and are home in a couple hours. In a real fight there is a good chance you won't feel a "cut" until after the adrenaline wears off. However I also have been on a particular scene where a person got stabbed in the femoral artery. They tried to mug an immigrant from a "knife culture" said immigrant stabbed them. The suspect sure as heck felt that one (inner thigh, near the groin?!?!?) and ran. The suspect made it less than 50 feet before he dropped due to blood loss and was dead on our arrival.

 

[KangTsai]

In my MMA/boxing/kickboxing context, that kind of fight behaviour would have me pounded the hell out of me. I see a centreline as a vulnerable position that I should be avoiding staying in. Every technique I use has some sort of thing to protect me from the threat of the centre, whether it be a basic jab to my favourite spinning hook kick, swivelling shoulders and leaning outward respectively. Wing chun is good but I think sticky hand fighting never worked for me ever. To me, "simultaneous attack and defence" is reflected in something like a diagonal hand trap/parry to a big hook punch, or a roundhouse leaning to the side.

 

[Juany118]

In my MMA/boxing/kickboxing context, that kind of fight behaviour would have me pounded the hell out of me. I see a centreline as a vulnerable position that I should be avoiding staying in. Every technique I use has some sort of thing to protect me from the threat of the centre, whether it be a basic jab to my favourite spinning hook kick, swivelling shoulders and leaning outward respectively. Wing chun is good but I think sticky hand fighting never worked for me ever. To me, "simultaneous attack and defence" is reflected in something like a diagonal hand trap/parry to a big hook punch, or a roundhouse leaning to the side.

See that is the thing. The opponent's center line is NOT their front. Some people do see the centerline as running down the front of the opponent but is doesnt.

The center line is an axis that goes through the top of the head through to the ground. So you can attack their center from their flank, their rear etc. As this also represents their center of balance and axis of rotation attacking it and disrupting it inhibits their ability to attack and defend. You always want to try to get to "the blind side."

Your personal centerline has an added concern for you, you want to keep yourself faced to your opponent in such a way that you can attack and defend the same target with both hands.

 

[Danny T]

Yep...Attack the Core, attack the core, attack the core.

 

[KPM]

Yep...Attack the Core, attack the core, attack the core.

Unless he has a knife!!!