Not fears; intellectual curiosity.
Should you post them, I will look forward to seeing them, though personally, I'm willing to take F/C at his word.
Daniel
Capoeira works
- Thread starter ATACX GYM
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Daniel
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
My motivation is simply that I want to see combat Capoeira. There is instructional material on thousands of arts out there, but I've never seen anything of the system of Capoeira you and Atacx speak about. Atacx told us that there is a combat version of Capoeira that he, himself has had experience of and, then shows us a handstand kick as a practical instrument of combat. If the range of actual, realistic combatives techniques is as wide as you say it is, why would Atacx choose to demonstrate such a ludicrously dangerous kick? It just doesn't ad up to me!As for vidoes of me doing Capoeira, I doubt there is any. Maybe there are a couple of photos somewher, but this is ok with me. Why should I want anyone to see me flopping around on the beach like an epileptic whale?My limited (not more than 4 sessions) of capoeira was with Motoca, who was an instructor at Capoeira Centrosul in Huntington Beach. The whole thing seemed to be a combination of conditioning, gymnastics and dance. It's beautiful and challenging, but as a combat art, it just ddin't hold water.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
I am going to take a moment to make some comments on this particular issue, the cartwheel kick that opened the thread.
First off, as I've stated several times in this thread, I do not view the acrobatics as a viable strategy for combat. They exist in capoeira as a different aspect of the art. However, I do believe that in LIMITED ways, SOME of those acrobatic aspects MAY be useful in combat. I will not say that absolutely, no way could they ever be used. Let me put it this way: just because YOU cannot do something doesn't mean SOMEONE ELSE cannot do it. Maybe SOMEONE ELSE is just gifted, or maybe YOU are inept, or maybe some of both. This is largely what the martial arts are all about, after all: developing skills that most other people cannot do. (and by YOU, I am referring to the hypothetical YOU, and not Daniel Sullivan specifically).
Now, ATAX posted that cartwheel kick as something he was playing with and finding use for. Lets look at the bigger picture here: ATAX is actually pretty new to capoeira, having studied for something like a year. I believe he posted that earlier in the thread. He's a newbie to capoeira, but he's an experienced martial artist otherwise. He's been over on Kenpotalk as well as here and he's been posting prolificaly about things he's working on, including video examples. I believe he's been training for something like 30 years (that's maybe 3 years longer that I've been in the martial arts), including a 5th degree black belt in a kenpo lineage and experience with a number of other systems as well. So he's got a good deal of experience and is no newcomer to the martial arts.
After I posted my own history with Capoeira, to his credit ATAX kind of deferred to me as a more experienced authority on capoeira than he is. He stated as much in a following post and I give him kudos for that.
ATAX is finding new possibilities with capoeira than what he had in his previous training. Capoeira is different and has some unique ways of approaching things with a very rich body of movement and unusual solutions. This can open a lot of doors for people, and in my experience I've often seen this happen with people who are new and enthusiastic about the art. The approach is so different from other methods that it's a real eye-opener and can become addicting (been there, done that my own self). Given his prior experience and insights I am not surprised that he would start working with the capoeira material and looking for ways to make it work outside the roda. I do not know his instructor, nor specifically how they are training. But I am not surprised that someone with his background would make this kind of experiment. From the video, I cannot say for sure if it has merit or not. Maybe it does, maybe not, maybe he is that SOMEONE ELSE who can make it work even if YOU cannot.
I see that video as him sharing his experiment with the forum here. "Hey everyone, look at what I'm working on, this is an experiment". OK, he didnt' present it quite that way, but I've got that insight from years of seeing it in new capoeira students, and having been one and done that myself. That's how I take his video in the opening post.
I'm actually trying to be the voice of reason in all this here. I just cannot understand why a group of outsiders who have no connection to capoeira are so hell-bent on insisting that it is not a viable fighting method. Whether it is or is not has absolutely no bearing on what these outsiders are doing themselves. The value of their own methods lies on their own shoulders, and has nothing to do with the viability of capoeira. I really get the impression that there are people here who somehow feel threatened by the possibility that MAYBE, JUST MAYBE there are some capoeira people out there who can fight like a goddam tiger. Perish the thought.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
why do you believe that everything must exist on video, or it doesn't exist at all?
I suspect that there is no "combat capoeira" as a separate system, just as there is no combat TKD as a separate system. It is likely all taught as part of a whole. Thus, I can, as a longtime taekwondoin, separate for you the practical aspect of the art from the arty aspect and those from the sport aspect.
FC can comment more informatively, but perhaps Capoeira, like hapkido, has groups who each have a different mix of techniques.
Daniel
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Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
sure, I'll explain this again as it seems to have largely slipped by most people here.
The main thing is in the focus of the training. The martial techniques exist in the art no matter what you are trainnig for, whether it's the "game/roda" aspect, or to be a fighter. But if you are training for the game, there will be a much higher inclusion of the acrobatics and creating a physical dialog between the players. Attacks and defenses exist within the game, but they are shown and implied rather than landed. To land an attack disrupts the flow and the physical dialog and destroys the game. So when people are training for the game they tend to limit that contact so as to not destroy what is being built. At the same time, the players and members of the circle all know who is winning and who is losing. No points are kept, but it's obvious to all involved who has outplayed the other.
To fight with capoeira is to take it outside the game context. This would in most cases also minimize or even eliminate the acrobatics. In this context the training should include much more contact and direct striking and might look more like a very fluid karate or kung fu drill. I believe it would not look much like capoeira in the roda, the music and rythmic aspects might be removed altho those can be useful for keeping the training energy. But that "dance" and "play" aspects would not show thru; it would be all business.
I'll go on record to say (again, I've said this at least a couple times in this thread) that I believe most schools at least in the US train for the roda and not for the fight. Some schools may include a small amount of fight training but from what I've seen I believe the approach isn't what it needs to be to really be fight training. I believe that a lot of instructors do not understand how to properly train capoeira to fight, because the game/roda has become so prevalent. Likewise, some games can become very close to a fight, as the players become combative, violent and injurious to each other. These games lack flow and physical dialog and have aggression instead, in the context of the roda. So a lot of this is found somewhere along a continuum. It is often impossible to paint things in black or white and say "IT'S THIS!" or "IT'S THAT!" and nothing else. That's just the nature of capoeira.
However, just because most mainstream capoeira makes the game the primary/only focus, does not mean that capoeira no longer has what it takes to be a fighting method. For those who pursue that road of trainnig, it is absoluty viable as a fighting method. For others, not so much. And just because the hypothetical YOU haven't seen it, cannot do it, cannot find a video of it, that doesn't mean it's not there. It just means YOU do not understand it, haven't learned it, haven't experienced it, or that the folks who do know this aren't interested in sharing it with you.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Good points Daniel! I have perused various martial arts on youtube and other video sources and have gained some valuable insight into the combative application of these arts. I recently looked through some of the katas in the Takamatsuden and found them impractical. I then saw some of the henka and was given some historical insight and the proverbial light stitch went on. If the people performing the katas had said, "They work, just take me at my word", I would have found it a little odd, and rather amusing. Instead I was given the links to the henka and I was illuminated. Now, If I was teaching a combatives class to a military or LEO unit, and I suddenly went into a cartwheel kick, you can bet I would get a few strange looks. If, let's say three students in the class were gymnasts and could actually pull the technique off. I could use this as an argument that the technique works, but the other members of the cadre would probably call me out for being negligent for teaching such a technique. Why? Because, regardless of who you are, being in a position where you are standing on your hands, for however short a time you are in the position, in front of an attacker who is intent on doing you damage is extremely dangerous. Can we all just agree that this kick should not be taught for combative purposes? Once again, but on this terminal, I cannot separate paragraphs.
fangjian
Black Belt
Hehehee. I find it ironic that, all of a sudden, you want evidence now, when you were making fun of me and calling me arrogant, in another thread just because I don't believe in your Cosmological claims. So by your logic, you are arrogant too now.
BTW, I don't think you are arrogant for questioning a claim that you feel lacks evidence. That's just what you said.
In regards to Capoeira's self defense potential, it seems like many of their techniques and skills, would have to be practiced for quite a while to make applicable and effective. However, I have seen some videos of Capoeiristas doing some interesting self defense stuff which was definitely applicable. I am curious though, if this is stuff that was picked up elsewhere and they are attributing it to Capoeira. You could give me a Salsa routine and I could give you many fighting concepts from the movements, but that really wasn't Salsa. I do this with my Modern Wushu forms. I put everything else I learned from other styles and teach many applications for the wushu movements, but I don't lie about where it came from.
Regarding the claim, that there are many mestres in Brazil who truly teach the fighting concepts and such ( by FC ) , I don't see why that is so unreasonable. I would assume that to be true.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Just to be clear, I actually do not know that for a fact. I've only stated that from what I've observed in the US, most schools train for the roda and do not properly train for fighting. What is going on in Brazil is something I do not know.
I have stated that I've met some very skilled teachers from Brazil who can definitely take care of business. I know this because I've taken class with them and I've played in the roda with them and I've seen them play some VERY aggressive games with others, games that approached blatant combat. I know what they can do and I'm smart enough to know I don't want to be on the receiving end of that situation.
Outside of the roda, I doubt very much that anyone will find meaningful videos of capoeira. To my knowledge, instructional videos do not exists (I don't actually pay a lot of attention to the capoeira world any more so It's possible that they do exist, and I recollect that back in the late 1980s or so Amen Santos in LA made some videos tho I have no idea if they are still available and I've never seen them myself).
I do not believe you will find video of a capoeira guy beating off genuine attackers, any more than you are likely to find video of a kenpo guy fighting off genuine attackers. Life simply is not caught on video to be posted on Youtube for all the rubberneckers.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Go ahead!
So now you're saying that there is no separate system of Capoeira. So this means that the cartwheel kick is in the repetoire of combative techniques, which is rather silly.
This doesn't make sense to me either! You learn the dance as a method of combat, but when you're actually in combat, it becomes a free for all and doesn't resemble the art at all? Is this what you're trying to say?
I haven't seen it, not anywhere! In fact, because of my involvement in this thread, I've made more of an effort to find something that resembles combat oriented technique, but I haven't. You should've told me earlier that Capoeira is the dance I've seen everywhere else on Youtube and admonished me some time ago for not being an experienced enough Martial Artist to discern the dancey Triple Lindy kicks from the combative Triple Lindy kicks. Now, let's start a "no touch Knockout" thread. You can then try to convince me of the viability of such a technique in a combat scenario!
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
This might have something to do with it:
and it might have something to do with how you present yourself.
and my earlier comment that the readership here lacks the capacity.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Nice, answering my post personal attacks, isn't going to make your position correct! Go and have some camomile tea and take a twenty minute nap. You'll feel a lot better!
fangjian
Black Belt
Nah.
The more extraordinary the claim the more extraordinary the evidence has to be. To claim that there exist Capoeira schools that focus on self defense is not at the same level as claiming no touch knockouts. One of those claims will require much more evidence.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
sir, you are on a downward spiral and are losing more face with every post you make. It's become embarrassing.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
I was trying to be humourous, but my smilies are disabled on this terminal!
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
I don't think so Fella! You just did a full 180 and conceded that the combat version of Capoeira is the dance we've all been talking about here. Now, according to you we are not astute enough to pull the combat techniques out of it. apparently Mr. Parker was working on a book, just before he died titled "Everyday gestures that can save your life". My wife is a gymnast. Would I tell her that a handstand kick will be beneficial against an attempted rape? No! Why? Because it's not! And no amount of insulting posts from you will make it so! By the way, the embarassement comes from people making extraordinary claims about the effectiveness of dangerous handstands in combat
fangjian
Black Belt
I don't know how much it's been mentioned but I saw posted earlier that people will show off the most impressive parts of their style. As mentioned, that's why we see so many videos of the acrobatic stuff when it comes to Capoeira. Like Chinese martial arts, you mostly see very acrobatic routines, because they look awesome. So if someone claims that there exist wushu schools that focus on self defense, someone whose only seen the showy forms might call, bullsh!t. But we all know that there are gong fu schools that solely focus on self defense, and if it's at all showy, than that's a side effect and not the purpose itself. Like Capoeira, It seems reasonable that there would be schools that focus on combat.
It was mentioned. But people are still stuck on handstands and cartwheels.
Daniel
Daniel
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
It does seem however, that someone who presents a handstand kick as a combatives technique to demonstrate the "effectiveness" of Capoeira, has no idea about the reality of real world violence. As I've said before, if Atacx had showed me headbutting techniques from a close attack and said he got this from his Capoeira repetoire, I would've said, "Nice one mate, it looks effective to me!" That didn't happen though. On one hand Atacs has been arguing that the cartwheel kick is a reliable method of self preservation, while on the other hand FC was arguing that this type of technique is not the entirety of Capoeira and that it has a distinctly practical side. Now he is arguing that what we have all seen as Capoeira is, in reality the full spectrum of Capoeira, but it can't be practised as a combat system because that would distrupt the flow and if it is practised as a combat system it bears little resemblance to what is taught as Capoeira. can you understand how this can be construed as utter nonsense?
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
It does seem reasonable in theory, but nobody can show me!
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