Can you tell me anything about the logic behind chambering punches?

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
It's a minor difference that determines if you are able to kick or not. The position of a lock on a door will determine if on strangers can just walk in or have to knock. There are many minor things in Martial arts that can make a big difference when done or not done. Fist structures have minor differences in positions but big differences on oh the fist can be used.

Hanzou is just being Hanzou. I have to admit Hanzou is consistent.
Agreed. My point was simply that I think it's exactly the same technique, just shifted to allow for the kick. If you taught a boxer to kick, that's probably the exact change they'd make to their cross to allow the potential for a kick.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
In American Karate, amongst other things, I teach people to punch. That punching consists of right crosses, reverse punches and all other punches we use. We train all of them against resisting partners. Once the application of those punches reaches a point where they can use them fairly well, it's up to the student to use the ones they want.

Most use both ways (right cross or reverse punch) but not exclusively of each other. I've been hit with all of them maybe a zillion times, both to the body and to the face. Each and every one of them kind of sucked.

I don't see a big deal in which way anyone punches, as long as they can use that punch for what it was designed. To hit.
What is your distinction between those two, Buka?
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
Walking...let's look at the technique of the human walking.
The basic form is the technique. Do we all walk same? No but the technique is still walking.

That's a rally great point/analogy. After I read it I pictured how I walk, how the guys I work with walk, and how all my friends walk.

It's a damn good think we don't have a thread on walking here. Probably be fifty pages of "You're doing it all wrong!"
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
20,202
Reaction score
5,200
I would argue that at that point, the Kyokushin fighters aren't using Reverse Punches, they've adapted their system to being a form of kickboxing. If you look closely, even their stances are completely removed from the deep stances found in training and Kata practice. Again, as I've said many times; If that is the end point, why not simply do kickboxing from the beginning and avoid learning those techniques and kata that you're going to eventually shed?

Same reason you tie a boxers feet together.

There are a whole bunch of technical adjustments that need to be made by artificially restricting movement.

I still don't get chambering. But say deep stances forces your hips underneath you. Which when you become advanced in boxing is a technique that becomes important.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
What is your distinction between those two, Buka?

Openings, opportunity, position, intent. But, basically, it comes down to what you like.

If I'm standing in a natural stance and have to throw a punch I'll probably throw a cross (I'm talking about between the two mentioned) Not because it's the better of the two, but it's the better of the two for the way I move. If I'm in a more committed stance, as in sparring, again, it's opportunity and the openings available. The cross, for me anyway, allows me a better flow for the combinations that I like and are, more importantly, used to.

However, I have a rather nifty reverse punch. It's actually the first punch I ever learned. Been doing it two years longer than a cross. Some years back I had to stop a man from entering a prohibited area. I knew he was high as a loon and didn't care about anything and ignored all verbal warning. He advanced throwing his arms up over his head and yelling. I dropped a step forward, I think I was intending to throw a cross or maybe a shove, I think so anyway, but I threw a reverse punch, a traditional karate reverse punch that just came out. Hit him right in the front of his ribs under his pec. He broke like glass, went down in a heap. And this was winter, we both had heavy coats on. My intent was to stop him from entering an area of no no. Worked pretty good.

Had it on video from work. But they wouldn't give me a copy of it. Too bad, I really liked that video. And nooooo, it's not on youtube. Too bad about that too, it was kind of funny because it had no sound. But it was long before youtube ever existed.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
Same reason you tie a boxers feet together.

There are a whole bunch of technical adjustments that need to be made by artificially restricting movement.

I still don't get chambering. But say deep stances forces your hips underneath you. Which when you become advanced in boxing is a technique that becomes important.

Anybody that's spent long hours in boxing gyms have had their feet tied together at some point. For the uninitiated, it's to shorten your stance so your feet remain somewhat under your hips. I remember back when I did that, felt like I was on a chain gang for months on end.

It's a training tool. It may actually work a little bit. But no matter, in the heat of the boxing match the feet open wider, just like they had never been tied together in training at all.

I've had a lot of conversations about this with world class boxers. They all nod and laugh and say "yeah."
 

WaterGal

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
1,676
Reaction score
491
Except boxing is taught to children throughout the world. In some parts of the United States, Boxing is a sport taught in public school to 6-12th graders. We also shouldn't forget that there's a growing number of kids learning MMA, and they're also learning western Boxing in those gyms. I have little doubt that those children learning Boxing/MMA have any problems with punching properly, or have any aspirations to become pro fighters (though they could in the future). This includes the 9 year old chubby kids.

In short, I simply don't buy the argument that people are trained in that fashion in Karate or TKD because it was designed for kids. They train that way because those are the traditional techniques, and those techniques are continued to be taught despite them having little practical value.

I've never heard of young kids training in boxing in schools (or really, anywhere), but I'll take your word on that. How do those children's school boxing programs train their kids in boxing? I'm sure they have them practice some drills. What are they?
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
17,362
Reaction score
4,254
Location
Pueblo West, CO
I've never heard of young kids training in boxing in schools (or really, anywhere), but I'll take your word on that. How do those children's school boxing programs train their kids in boxing? I'm sure they have them practice some drills. What are they?

Depends on how you define "young kids" really. There's a boxing school in our area that has students in the 9-10 year old range. Periodically, we like to get together to have our respective students do some sparring. It's good for all of them.
 

Hanzou

Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
6,159
Reaction score
916
All in all, kung fu wouldn't work in a ring and MMA wouldn't work in a life or death battle.

Yes it would. In a life or death battle I'd rather be trained in MMA than just about any King Fu ste out there.
 

WaterGal

Master of Arts
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
1,676
Reaction score
491
Depends on how you define "young kids" really. There's a boxing school in our area that has students in the 9-10 year old range. Periodically, we like to get together to have our respective students do some sparring. It's good for all of them.

Even 9-10; I'm used to boxing being something for teens and adults. Though I did just look on google, and it does appear that one MMA school in my area has switched from offering youth Muay Thai to youth boxing since the last time I looked at their website. They do emphasize that the kids can't get hurt during the class, which makes me wonder what the training is like - only on bags, maybe? But really, I'm wondering how a beginner's boxing class for average 9-10 year olds is like. Do they do basic drills to get the kids comfortable and used to moving and hitting?
 

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
17,362
Reaction score
4,254
Location
Pueblo West, CO
Even 9-10; I'm used to boxing being something for teens and adults. Though I did just look on google, and it does appear that one MMA school in my area has switched from offering youth Muay Thai to youth boxing since the last time I looked at their website. They do emphasize that the kids can't get hurt during the class, which makes me wonder what the training is like - only on bags, maybe? But really, I'm wondering how a beginner's boxing class for average 9-10 year olds is like. Do they do basic drills to get the kids comfortable and used to moving and hitting?

They look a lot like 9-10 year olds in a TKD class, but without the kicking (at least at this particular school). They spar with gloves with a lot of padding, and they wear headgear and something like looks an awful lot like hogu.
I'd question the "can't" claim, because feces occurs. But I'm sure injuries are pretty rare.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Yes it would. In a life or death battle I'd rather be trained in MMA than just about any King Fu ste out there.
Yeah, I've never really understood the claim that MMA wouldn't work in SD. There might be ways to improve its application outside the ring/octagon, but being able to beat somebody up is a useful skill in many SD situations. And it's hard to argue anybody is really better at that skill than MMA competitors.
 

pdg

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
3,568
Reaction score
1,032
I've had a lot of conversations about this with world class boxers. They all nod and laugh and say "yeah.

Is that before or after you sweep them for a laugh?
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
Is that before or after you sweep them for a laugh?

It was probably three years in the boxing gym before I ever experienced "Hey, let's spar and you can do all the Karate stuff."

That might have been my all time, favorite, fun day in my training history. Boxers have no idea how to break fall. And they sure as hell have no clue about sweeps. But I caught a lot of them before they fell on most of the sweeps, that's only fair and proper. I took them down with simple sweeps, Iron Brooms, trips, leg kick outs, scissor take downs. It was so much damn fun.

I swept so much that day I was offered a job as a janitor. Still have the broom, too.
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
P.S. to my last post above. Another thing I did was snap kick them to the groin several times a round. At first it was "Hey, that's dirty fighting, that's a foul!" But I explained to them that groin contact was a standard target in all open Karate tournaments back then. All of them. And it was just a slap to the large groin protector all boxers wear training. So I'd just slap it. Then throw the same thing to their stomach but crack them kind of hard. That was how they knew the groin tap was just a tap.

But if you have it in your repertoire, slap them with a lead leg hook kick, small angle, right upside their head when they're in mid punch. Then, because they'll be looking for that kick, which they don't really understand - I mean, how could they? - pump fake a sweep, only really wide, pull it back and hook kick. You'll smack them again.

THEN - fake that hook, pull it back mid kick and side kick them on the waist line as they attempt to step in. If you catch them mid step, it will sit them on their butt with a wonderful look of confusion on their face.

I love boxing. But I love Martial fighting against boxers even more.
 

pdg

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Messages
3,568
Reaction score
1,032
Hold up there @Buka - this guy on YouTube says boxing beats any other martial art, flawlessly, every single time.

They obviously let you do those things ;)
 

CB Jones

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
3,788
Reaction score
1,791
Location
Saline
P.S. to my last post above. Another thing I did was snap kick them to the groin several times a round. At first it was "Hey, that's dirty fighting, that's a foul!" But I explained to them that groin contact was a standard target in all open Karate tournaments back then. All of them. And it was just a slap to the large groin protector all boxers wear training. So I'd just slap it. Then throw the same thing to their stomach but crack them kind of hard. That was how they knew the groin tap was just a tap.

But if you have it in your repertoire, slap them with a lead leg hook kick, small angle, right upside their head when they're in mid punch. Then, because they'll be looking for that kick, which they don't really understand - I mean, how could they? - pump fake a sweep, only really wide, pull it back and hook kick. You'll smack them again.

THEN - fake that hook, pull it back mid kick and side kick them on the waist line as they attempt to step in. If you catch them mid step, it will sit them on their butt with a wonderful look of confusion on their face.

I love boxing. But I love Martial fighting against boxers even more.

There is a few in the organization my son competes in that are pushing for the organization to stop allowing groin contact. Hopefully that doesn't gain traction.
 

CB Jones

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 20, 2017
Messages
3,788
Reaction score
1,791
Location
Saline
Another thing I did was snap kick them to the groin several times a round

This December, Jacob and his Sensei's son created a sparring game. It was freestyle continuous sparring (3 minute rounds) but only Groin kicks scored......they called it.....Jingle Balls. :D
 

Buka

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
7,391
Location
Maui
Agreed. My point was simply that I think it's exactly the same technique, just shifted to allow for the kick. If you taught a boxer to kick, that's probably the exact change they'd make to their cross to allow the potential for a kick.

Yeah, but not all the time. The last boxer I taught kicking to was Ray Leonard. He didn’t change squat about his punching.

I guess we can’t really fault him for that. That man could punch like the Dickens.
 

gpseymour

MT Moderator
Staff member
Supporting Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2012
Messages
25,736
Reaction score
7,544
Location
Hendersonville, NC
Yeah, but not all the time. The last boxer I taught kicking to was Ray Leonard. He didn’t change squat about his punching.

I guess we can’t really fault him for that. That man could punch like the Dickens.
How did I not see that coming?
 

Latest Discussions

Top