Can trapping work? by Badger Johnson

[Stickgrappler]

My friend Badger Johnson wrote an essay on the controversial subject of Trapping

Please post a comment on the page for him.

Link below includes links to other great essays by him.

Hope this helps in your Martial Arts Journey, or as I call it, the Sojourn of Septillion Steps

Badger Johnson - Can Trapping Work Stickgrappler s Sojourn of Septillion Steps

 

[Mephisto]

Probably not gonna take the initiative to reply to the blog post but I'll reply here as a discussion point. I think defining trapping is a good starting point for discussion but I think his definition was a little too broad as the term is generally used. It seems like any grappling or element of control was a trap by his definition. Cutting off the opponent in the ring? A kimura? I don't think most people are referring to these techniques when talking trapping but I suppose in a literal sense you are setting a trap or causing an immobilization which is probably close to the definition of a trap as its used outside of martial arts.

I'd argue that a trap as its commonly used refers to what we see in wing chun, jkd, and a variety of other arts. It's a momentary deflection or control of a limb to create an opening. I'd say any kind of hold or grab gets into grappling territory. Trapping range is a commonly used term and it is usually described as the range transitioning from striking to grappling range. I'm open to other thoughts but that's my two cents.

 

[drop bear]

Well yes if we call clinching trapping.

Otherwise I trap in the more classical sense off their guard rather than in the middle of them punching me because their hands are moving a bit slower.

 

[drop bear]

Wait apparently I do hand trap. Because boxing.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I trap on occassion, but I go for the trap alot less than I used to. Trapping when doing hard contact sparring is significantly more difficult than applying a trap in a partner drill because good punchers will throw fast flurries and can very likely punch a lot quicker than you can trap and transition to another technique. If I do trap I tend to go for the third or fourth punch in a combo because I've by this stage moved into a closer range which tends to limit the power my opponent is throwing at me and by the fourth punch in a combo there's a liklihood that they will take a small break from trying to punch my face in before starting again or trying something else.

As somone who's trained in styles that use a lot of trapping for almost four years, I still find it very difficult to do against someone who has trained their hands well and I actually value crisp punching as being more beneficial in terms of self defence and sparring now.

Saying that, there's guys like Raul Ortiz that are fantastic at it:

Seven Star Mantis "Tactical Mantis Training®":

 

[Mephisto]

Wait apparently I do hand trap. Because boxing.

That was one carry over from my FMA when I started boxing that worked well. The parry, cupping, passing, ect helped a lot when applied to boxing and I was able to execute them better than some of the boxers. My favorite is (southpaw stance) slip outside party with my lead hand and move in with the cross. The main thing about applying traps in my experience is to let a strike come to you and deflect it, if you're reaching to trap the arm when the other guy is trying to take your head off you're gonna be wide open if you fail. You have to be good at timing and you have to be comfortable letting shots come close but it works and works well.

 

[Argus]

I agree with Mephisto -- his definition of trapping is a bit too broad, to the point of not really answering the question.

My answer is that, if you have to ask whether something is "effective" or not, and treat it as a mystery, you simply don't understand it. The key with many things in the martial arts is to develop an intuitive understanding of them in order that you can apply them in the right context. There is a context for everything, and if you don't know when to apply something intuitively, and without thinking, you will never find the chance to apply it; or worse yet, you will try to apply it in the wrong context. It's always a mistake, in my opinion, to go in with the idea that you're going to do "this" and "that" -- this is where a lot of people go wrong with trapping. They think of it as some trick you can pull out of your pocket and make happen. That kind of action is not likely to meet for success. Rather, you have to simply take what is presented to you for what it is. If I "trap," it's because my opponent gave me the circumstances to do so, and I noticed and took advantage of it in the moment; he put his elbow over the centerline and gave me the opportunity to press it. He crossed his arms. I'm just flowing with whatever presents itself; that's what the purpose of all of that sensitivity training is about. And moreover, even when I do "wind up trapping," I'm still listening and flowing and not depending on that to keep him under control. I'm expecting him to counter, and am looking to cut off his next line of attack.

Learn how it works. Develop an intuitive sense for it, in order that it comes out when it needs to, and take opportunities for what they are in the moment they present themselves, rather than trying to memorize something to do and applying it when you "think" you can or want to.

That's my take. From a Wing Chun perspective, at least.

 

[Yoshin9]

I see trapping as pinning one or both arms, which is a very temporary control where the goal is to hit; grabbing is a longer term control. Trapping is more about hitting while grabbing is more about arresting a persons movement entirely.

Everything works when the situation is right for it. I dare say that trapping a good striker is much more likely than grabbing (the attacking hand/arm) of a good striker; it comes down to being a more simple motor skill. Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else.

 

[Mephisto]

I see trapping as pinning one or both arms, which is a very temporary control where the goal is to hit; grabbing is a longer term control. Trapping is more about hitting while grabbing is more about arresting a persons movement entirely.

Everything works when the situation is right for it. I dare say that trapping a good striker is much more likely than grabbing (the attacking hand/arm) of a good striker; it comes down to being a more simple motor skill. Just because you can't do something, doesn't mean it doesn't work for someone else.

I don't know if i'd say trapping a good striker is easier than grabbing. I suppose there are many variables and context to consider. Perhaps pinning an arm that is not moving isn't too difficult but deflecting an incoming attack requires a lot more skill. I'm not too keen on pinning the arm either, a good striker will have good footwork and simply step back or fire the other hand at you. Now a quick smother or cover to setup a strike is one thing. But maybe it's the terminology that's the issue here. I think of a pin as something a little more substantial than a trap. This is where discussion gets hairy because we each have our own idea of what a term means and there's probably no standard definition. The best we can do is get a feel for how the majority of people interpret the term. Either way though pinning, trapping, smothering or covering an arm is a quick movement that doesn't involve a grip, the opponent is free to resist range out or strike with another tool which a good striker will certainly do. I think grabbing a good striker is more likely, with a grab you can still rush in eat a shot and get a grip on the guy. Despite counter arguments, to my knowledge we have yet to see a pure striker with no grappling background successfully resist a clinch or some kind of tie up in the UFC.

 

[Argus]

I don't know if i'd say trapping a good striker is easier than grabbing. I suppose there are many variables and context to consider. Perhaps pinning an arm that is not moving isn't too difficult but deflecting an incoming attack requires a lot more skill. I'm not too keen on pinning the arm either, a good striker will have good footwork and simply step back or fire the other hand at you. Now a quick smother or cover to setup a strike is one thing. But maybe it's the terminology that's the issue here. I think of a pin as something a little more substantial than a trap. This is where discussion gets hairy because we each have our own idea of what a term means and there's probably no standard definition. The best we can do is get a feel for how the majority of people interpret the term. Either way though pinning, trapping, smothering or covering an arm is a quick movement that doesn't involve a grip, the opponent is free to resist range out or strike with another tool which a good striker will certainly do. I think grabbing a good striker is more likely, with a grab you can still rush in eat a shot and get a grip on the guy. Despite counter arguments, to my knowledge we have yet to see a pure striker with no grappling background successfully resist a clinch or some kind of tie up in the UFC.

This is where understanding the principles of Wing Chun is essential, I believe. The quote is in my signature, but I'll repeat it here and use it to address some of your concerns:

"Intercept what comes; pursue what departs; when the hands are freed of obstructions, [they] attack instinctively."

This is how WC, and, I would argue, by extension, JKD, should be applied. Any "technique" is useless without an understanding of its purpose -- not only when and how it should be applied, but what it is expressing, and what it is trying to accomplish. So, with that in mind:

...the opponent is free to resist range out or strike with another tool which a good striker will certainly do.

Absolutely. That will be a striker's natural reaction.

If your opponent resists, yield and allow him to open his centerline for your next hand to attack.

If he tries to range out, follow after. You should have hit him already, simultaneously with your deflection, but regardless, you want to maintain forward pressure at all times.

If he launches the other hand, simply cover that line with your free hand, while your controlling hand senses the opening (created as he retracts his hand that was pinned) and follows in with an attack. Alternatively, just go straight in with your free hand and beat him to the punch, or step offline and cut it off from the outside, depending on how the pressure flows and what line he comes in on.

None of these "techniques" are in and of themselves an end goal; they're merely a means to an end, and must adhere to certain principles to be useful. If the arm you've pinned retracts, it's created an opening, and the pinning hand should immediately sense that and shoot in. If it tries to push you off center, you should let it go, sense the opening, and follow in with another attack. And you should always be ready to cut off the rear hand; looking for the next line. If your opponent tries to retreat, you must be able to sense that and follow in simultaneously. All of that needs to happen instantaneously, and instinctively as a result of your training. It's something that you really have to train to be able to apply, because much of it runs counter to what people want to do instinctively in sparring. It's also a comparatively more aggressive, and therefore a somewhat riskier method of fighting, so I think that you have to be willing to eat a lot of punches in the process of learning to make it work under stress, and against skilled opponents in a sparring context who are less aggressive and more careful than what you'd encounter in earnest combat or self-defense.

I can't say I'm there yet. I still have a lot more punches to eat myself before I can say that I can apply it with a high degree of success in a sparring context. But, even given my limited experience, I find that I'm still able to apply what I learn fairly well when I'm simply focused on, well... applying the fundamental principles of the art. For me, sparring is just a challenge; a way to experiment and see how I can apply things under pressure. And as long as I approach it that way, I tend to meet with decent results that, overall, validate my training. I don't approach it as a competitive venue. If I did, I don't think I would learn as much about the art that I practice. I might become a good fighter who learns to hit and not get hit, but with a narrower method, and to the exclusion of much that my art has to offer.

 

[Pittsburgh Arnis]

Wait apparently I do hand trap. Because boxing.

Very nice video!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I assume this is trapping.

I assume this is trapping too.

 

[Juany118]

That was one carry over from my FMA when I started boxing that worked well. The parry, cupping, passing, ect helped a lot when applied to boxing and I was able to execute them better than some of the boxers. My favorite is (southpaw stance) slip outside party with my lead hand and move in with the cross. The main thing about applying traps in my experience is to let a strike come to you and deflect it, if you're reaching to trap the arm when the other guy is trying to take your head off you're gonna be wide open if you fail. You have to be good at timing and you have to be comfortable letting shots come close but it works and works well.

I was going to mention FMA as well but with a different take away. My instructor teaches Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali in tandem. Now WC obviously is big on trapping, and I-K has some too, and I have seen it work VERY well in the hands of exceptional practitioners. That said I prefer the parry, cupping, passing AND gunting of I-K. It is, imo at least, quicker, functional from multiple angles (depending on the target of the gunting) and while perhaps not getting the arm completely out of the equation still provides you with a distinct advantage if executed properly. You can even "gunt" the legs. Get a good strike on the Common Peroneal (and I have in real life altercations)? You opponent is dropping and taking some moments before they can stand on both legs again.