Can someone explain this to me?

[Gerry Seymour]

How do you train in a self defense like this so it feels real without one guy having to be the "play along" dummy on the receiving end?

You start with the dead training like this - a single attack, then wait for the response. This is how nearly all training starts. This only becomes a problem when it never progresses past that point. There should be a progression. One option is something like this:

• Single attack ("feeding" the drill)
• Single attack with progressive resistance (moving to some natural "next action", which could be nothing more than stepping back, straightening up, etc.)
• Series of attacks, starting with the single attack used previously (the objective is to use the technique to end after the first attack)
• Use the technique in the flow of free grappling/sparring/randori

There are certainly more steps that could be put in, but IMO it's important that training progress to that last step in some form. Note that the last step isn't a way to train a specific technique (certainly not with grappling) - it's a way to practice using techniques, but you can't know which techniques will be used, because you don't know what openings you will have (that's a different answer for striking - I'm speaking mostly of grappling techniques).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was private sessions and no he would not allow me to practice them against him, he told me I didn't need to and just picture the moves he applied to me in my mind at home and that these moves require little effort and force so I wouldn't need to train them against someone. He also mentioned they are too dangerous of moves to practice and apply on someone and can only be truly applied in self defense.

That's just utter nonsense. It sounds to me like he had some moderate skill, and was insecure. He didn't want to have you do them to him, because if you learned to do them, he wouldn't seem so awesome. There is no technique that is so dangerous it cannot be practiced. There are some that must be practiced carefully, and stopped short of where you'd use them in some defensive situations (small joint locks), but you can still practice those - like he was on you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what you're saying. So it's like being choreographed. Am I better just learning MMA to get the best training for real self defense?

There are some real advantages to MMA-style training. If that's an approach that appeals to you, go with that.

 

[drop bear]

I think Fred Mastro works with Funker Tactical in the United States so you could always ask those guys what they think of it. I think he also works closely with Doug Marcaida.......

He also has alot of seminars in the US so you can always visit one of those

Yeah. but then you get more demos. I dont go see david copperfield to find out if magic is real.

 

[drop bear]

You start with the dead training like this - a single attack, then wait for the response. This is how nearly all training starts. This only becomes a problem when it never progresses past that point. There should be a progression. One option is something like this:

• Single attack ("feeding" the drill)
• Single attack with progressive resistance (moving to some natural "next action", which could be nothing more than stepping back, straightening up, etc.)
• Series of attacks, starting with the single attack used previously (the objective is to use the technique to end after the first attack)
• Use the technique in the flow of free grappling/sparring/randori

There are certainly more steps that could be put in, but IMO it's important that training progress to that last step in some form. Note that the last step isn't a way to train a specific technique (certainly not with grappling) - it's a way to practice using techniques, but you can't know which techniques will be used, because you don't know what openings you will have (that's a different answer for striking - I'm speaking mostly of grappling techniques).

Sort of. Creating the position and isolating the limb and having that able to be performed in real time against resistance is more important than perfecting the lock.

So if we look at leglocks. which is the equivalent of martial arts latin. It is not so much about dead drilling the lock as it is flow drilling the position.

The easiest way to explain this is if someone spent their time perfecting their time mastering the eye gouge. Getting correct hand position. Killing oranges with your fingers. That kind of thing.

They would still get murdered by a guy who has spent time matering striking. Timing, distancing and opportunity.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sort of. Creating the position and isolating the limb and having that able to be performed in real time against resistance is more important than perfecting the lock.

So if we look at leglocks. which is the equivalent of martial arts latin. It is not so much about dead drilling the lock as it is flow drilling the position.

The easiest way to explain this is if someone spent their time perfecting their time mastering the eye gouge. Getting correct hand position. Killing oranges with your fingers. That kind of thing.

They would still get murdered by a guy who has spent time matering striking. Timing, distancing and opportunity.

Agreed. That's partly the point of the last bullet, but I left that part out to keep the answer shorter. To train a technique, you start with the technique in isolation. You have to take that technique out of isolation at some point, though. Working positioning and flow is how you get yourself to the openings and find availability. If drilled well (as opposed to poorly - quantity isn't the main factor), the drills will help you recognize the technique when it is available. I guess what I'm trying to say is that drills for techniques, IMO, are not necessarily training the actual entry you'll use (you can't reasonably drill every possible entry with every possible technique). To get to where you can execute it in sparring/randori, you need that flow element you're talking about.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. That's partly the point of the last bullet, but I left that part out to keep the answer shorter. To train a technique, you start with the technique in isolation. You have to take that technique out of isolation at some point, though. Working positioning and flow is how you get yourself to the openings and find availability. If drilled well (as opposed to poorly - quantity isn't the main factor), the drills will help you recognize the technique when it is available. I guess what I'm trying to say is that drills for techniques, IMO, are not necessarily training the actual entry you'll use (you can't reasonably drill every possible entry with every possible technique). To get to where you can execute it in sparring/randori, you need that flow element you're talking about.

Have a look at my new thread kit dale doesn't drill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Single attack ("feeding" the drill)...

The "single attack" can be the main trunk of a tree. You can grow a full tree out of it. For example,

1. single leg.
2. single leg, foot sweep.
3. single leg, twist and spring.
4. single leg, inner hook.
5. ...

Just for 1 ... 4, a tree with 3 branches has been grown. For each branch, sub-branches can be grown out of it too.

 

[Onesword23]

In a fight you should probably use moves you can actually do rather than moves applied in your mind.

Way back in the day I tried to wrist lock a friend of mine play fighting. Instead of falling over like he was supposed to do. He slapped me in the face. This was because as he was not a martial artist he had no interest in letting my technique work.

I didn't realize at the time but that was an important lesson in what I should have been training in self defence.

I guess that probably explains why it's harder to use in a real life situation as opposed to when practicing against a training partner cause both guys are training with compliance only for me it as way worse when I tried sessions with this guy months ago cause he wouldn't even let me try the techniques against him, only he was allowed to demonstrate the techniques on me. He didn't want me to practice them on him.

That's total BS. If he has the type of skills you described, he got them from p pressure testing against a partner.

That's very likely the case, he told me he was going to get some students so I could practice the moves against them but they never showed up to his classes and so I never met them. He said he has years of skills from all these different martial arts, and he told me these moves work against anybody, that he's used them on the streets before and has taken down, gang members, boxers, bjj practitioners, MMA fighters, saying they're just sport guys and not street fighters and has defeated other martial artists using them

Completely ridiculous on so many levels...

If they were “too dangerous of moves to practice and apply on someone and can only be truly applied in self defense” then how come he did them to you? Wouldn’t that negate everything he said?

Learning solely it by visualizing it working and not practicing it? You’ve never ridden a bike before. Watch me circle around you, go off some jumps, and do some tricks. You’re not allowed to get on your bike, but you have to visualize it. Riding a bike is only for longer distance transportation when your car is in the shop and the busses and trains aren’t running. Don’t touch that bike until there’s absolutely no other choice, because it’s too dangerous.

Should I go through a swim instructor scenario where the teacher says visualize swimming, but it’s too dangerous to actually get in the water and practice, and swimming is only for if you fall into the pool and have no other option?

Sorry, but this MA “teacher” simply wanted a punching bag/tackling dummy and nothing more. He should’ve paid you.

You are so right I feel kind of deceived right now I mean the moves seem really good and he said this can be applied on anyone, works on any body type, showing me has he would subdue me literally begging and squirming in pain to the ground with finger locks, pressure points and so forth. He said it doesn't matter if it's a pro fighter or a 6'5 guy or very muscular guy, they're going down with his moves. I kind of bought into the concept of him telling me that by him performing these moves on me, that all I need to do is observe them in my mind then go home and memorize what he did to me and I would be able to have it, "basically described it like me recording his moves he does to me in my head" kind of thing. But you are right, you can't learn to ride a bike without actually doing it, not by having someone show you how they can ride it. I'm still fearing the pain in areas of my body from months ago.

You're bike and swim analogy makes so much sense, you actually made me laugh on those comparisons but also made me realize how stupid I was for training with that guy and yeah he should of paid me to be his test dummy instead of me paying him ... I'm an idiot and wish I knew sooner

Why do you want to know? The stuff you see in the first post is all instructional demonstrations....

Cause I'm not very educated in the world of martial arts training and and when I look at these moves that look like deadly moves on the street that put the guy off balance and in pain, it makes me curious about learning it for self defense. It also looks like the moves would end the fight quick but again you're right about it being a demo and we don't know if it would be that fluid in real life.



.

 

[Onesword23]

You start with the dead training like this - a single attack, then wait for the response. This is how nearly all training starts. This only becomes a problem when it never progresses past that point. There should be a progression. One option is something like this:

• Single attack ("feeding" the drill)
• Single attack with progressive resistance (moving to some natural "next action", which could be nothing more than stepping back, straightening up, etc.)
• Series of attacks, starting with the single attack used previously (the objective is to use the technique to end after the first attack)
• Use the technique in the flow of free grappling/sparring/randori

There are certainly more steps that could be put in, but IMO it's important that training progress to that last step in some form. Note that the last step isn't a way to train a specific technique (certainly not with grappling) - it's a way to practice using techniques, but you can't know which techniques will be used, because you don't know what openings you will have (that's a different answer for striking - I'm speaking mostly of grappling techniques).

This would have been a better way for me to train as I would learn techniques step by step and have resistance training against me while I could apply the techniques as well. His philosophy was that he didn't believe in steps and drills, he just went at me joint locks and vital pressure point moves similar to that Belgium guy in the video, only once he did the moves on me and had me to the ground, especially those aikido wrist throws he would do, then apply other pressured moves and strikes on my vital areas while I was already holding me in a hand/wrist lock, showing me how easy it is to cripple or kill someone. He said these are techniques similar to what the police do but said his lethal their techniques are limited compared to his.

That's just utter nonsense. It sounds to me like he had some moderate skill, and was insecure. He didn't want to have you do them to him, because if you learned to do them, he wouldn't seem so awesome. There is no technique that is so dangerous it cannot be practiced. There are some that must be practiced carefully, and stopped short of where you'd use them in some defensive situations (small joint locks), but you can still practice those - like he was on you.

I should have known better but this is all too true. I mean there would have to be reasons why he would not let me apply techniques against him since he had no other students(at the time I think). I even had asked him a few times why I couldn't practice them against him, he told me he had a back injury a while ago and that he's older now and can't go to the ground, also said I can use my mind to memorize them. I'm believing now it was all bs and he probably wanted to show me how superior he was compared to me. He did those small joint locks pretty hard against me, he let me do one or two basic moves but would not allow me to follow through with them like he had done to me.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

different martial arts, and he told me these moves work against anybody, that he's used them on the streets before and has taken down, gang members, boxers, bjj practitioners, MMA fighters, saying they're just sport guys and not street fighters and has defeated other martial artists using them

he said this can be applied on anyone, works on any body type, showing me has he would subdue me literally begging and squirming in pain to the ground with finger locks, pressure points and so forth. He said it doesn't matter if it's a pro fighter or a 6'5 guy or very muscular guy, they're going down with his moves

This kind of talk is a huge red flag. There are no secret techniques that nobody can defeat.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he's older now ...

How old is he?

MA skill is relative. It's not absolute. For example, in wrestling,

1. If you can't take your opponent down, you are not a good wrestler.
2. If your opponent can take you down, you are not a good wrestler.

Does 1 and 2 contradict to each other? Of course not.

20 years training > 10 years training > 1 year training

 

[Onesword23]

This kind of talk is a huge red flag. There are no secret techniques that nobody can defeat.

If I knew sooner I would have realized this. I think he tried to sell himself off as a badass instructor, sensei, martial arts master.

How old is he?

MA skill is relative. It's not absolute. For example, in wrestling,

1. If you can't take your opponent down, you are not a good wrestler.
2. If your opponent can take you down, you are not a good wrestler.

Does 1 and 2 contradict to each other? Of course not.

20 years training > 10 years training > 1 year training

He said in his 50's. I guess he never truly showed me how good his moves are cause he had only tested them on me, which he proved he could take me down, there was one other student that and showed up while I was there and he demonstrated the moves on that student as well, he seemed amazed by it like I did, unfortunately that student didn't return. I even got to talk with that student after the session was over and he was telling me how amazing the instructors skills were.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If I knew sooner I would have realized this. I think he tried to sell himself off as a badass instructor, sensei, martial arts master.



He said in his 50's. I guess he never truly showed me how good his moves are cause he had only tested them on me, which he proved he could take me down, there was one other student that and showed up while I was there and he demonstrated the moves on that student as well, he seemed amazed by it like I did, unfortunately that student didn't return. I even got to talk with that student after the session was over and he was telling me how amazing the instructors skills were.

Get some training. Training gives you some tools to assess an instructor/school better. Almost any decent training will do for a start, and will equip you to find the training you want. If you're lucky, you'll decide you like that training you're already getting.

 

[JR 137]

Let’s just say the teacher in question is truly an unbelievable (in a good way) fighter. Let’s say his strategy and technique is impeccable. Let’s say ALL of his claims of prowess are 100% true.

How does that guarantee he’s a good teacher? Being wowed and entertained by your teacher’s skills are great if you’re paying to watch him. If you’re paying to learn from him, all bets are off. Doing something and being able to effectively teach it aren’t one in the same.

My former sensei was a far better MAist physically than my current teacher. He was faster, stronger, and his technique was very sharp. One of the best MAists I’ve ever been around from that standpoint. My current teacher is in his mid 60s and needs hip replacement for the third time. Needless to say he’s not very agile and mobile. He’s quite good with his hands and upper body mechanics though. My former sensei was a very good teacher. My current teacher is a lot better. He’s picked apart my technique and strategy and made simple and realistic corrections far better than anyone else I’ve trained under. That’s a teacher and not an entertainer.

Go watch a bunch of classes at a bunch of different schools. See what’s out there and it should easily help you know where to go.

 

[Martial_Kumite]

Is this type of training an example of practical self defense that can really work in the streets against an attacker? Does it work for real this smoothly or is it not as easy to execute in real life? I was just curious, thanks.

This is a demo ment to look good and get people invested in what is being shown. Whether or not it has any applicable use, .......... well you can judge that (Of course I am being optimistic). When these "scenario" fights happen in this setting people tend to play along instead of giving resistance. You will not have someone stunned long enough to pull some of the moves the video show or have them fall after one low hit. So, based only on the video, it would be difficult if not inefective to use what was being shown sence most of it was shown with joint manipulation on a still target.

 

[kravmaga1]

Yes this is right method but you can improve more by using some krav maga methods. Krav maga methods help you to protect more than any other martial arts on the street because you don't know the robber or anybody who wants to beat you ,know what types of martial arts? But that is simple there is a limited person who knows krav maga in the world. So try it then see the result.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes this is right method but you can improve more by using some krav maga methods. Krav maga methods help you to protect more than any other martial arts on the street because you don't know the robber or anybody who wants to beat you ,know what types of martial arts? But that is simple there is a limited person who knows krav maga in the world. So try it then see the result.

On what do you base your assertion that Krav Maga is superior to all other arts for defensive use?

 

[Kababayan]

That's very likely the case, he told me he was going to get some students so I could practice the moves against them but they never showed up to his classes and so I never met them. He said he has years of skills from all these different martial arts, and he told me these moves work against anybody, that he's used them on the streets before and has taken down, gang members, boxers, bjj practitioners, MMA fighters, saying they're just sport guys and not street fighters and has defeated other martial artists using them

I had to chuckle at this because I used to own a full-time dojo and this was pretty much what every student from other dojos would come in a say to me. It would be something like, "My instructor teaches death techniques that are so deadly that he won't allow us to practice on each other because we would die"...or something to that extent. I'm probably guilty of telling my students something like that at some point. I still have a few techniques that I don't teach publicly because they are too dangerous. Please stop laughing...I really do. (just kidding)

Yes this is right method but you can improve more by using some krav maga methods. Krav maga methods help you to protect more than any other martial arts on the street because you don't know the robber or anybody who wants to beat you ,know what types of martial arts? But that is simple there is a limited person who knows krav maga in the world. So try it then see the result.

Respectfully, I'm a huge Krav fan but I don't think that he is saying that it is superior to other arts. It seems that it came out that way by the words that he chose, but it also seems that he is communicating in a language that isn't his first language. Good for him for doing so. Things can get misunderstood when that happens. I think he is saying that Krav techniques are very self defense specific and can be applied to many self defense situations. Not as many people know Krav and may not be aware of its moves vs. the many people that know traditional arts. That may give Krav practitioners an advantage because their attackers may not have seen Krav that much. I think that's what he meant by what he said...although I may be completing wrong about anything that I just said.

 

[Kababayan]

I forgot to mention that I attended one of his seminars in L.A. He has some good stuff for martial artists who have trained before. It's mostly scenario-type training, so I think the students would have to already have some martial arts experience to be able to get the full benefit. It was a good "here's some cool techniques" seminar.