Bunkai to Kumite

Makalakumu

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I practice Tang Soo Do, which is a Korean Martial Art, and we practice some kata that originated in Okinawa. I am seeking a Japanese/Okinawan perspective on which Bunkai from a particular kata best transfer into Kumite. The kata that I actually "know" and can comment on are: all of the Pyung Ahns (pinans), all of the Naihanchis, Bassai O and Te, and Chinto.
 

BlackCatBonz

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you ask "which" bunkai transfer best. the problem is a lot of people dont really see any bunkai aside from the obvious. off the top of my head i can think of 50 uses for the first 3 movements in pinan nidan. the movement in the kata when doing bunkai does not need to remain rigid and unchanging. also, movements which would appear to be only transitions are much more than that.
the best place to start is to have a training partner attack you in as many ways as they can, while you take the same movement and discover how it would apply to each separate attack. then take the knowledge you gained from that and apply it to a looser approach like kumite. the only problem with this is; the attacks in kumite tend to be non-commital so you may have to alter again what youve done.
 

JAMJTX

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All of it translates to kumite.
If you do not have access to a qualified instructor who can teach you the applications, then there are 2 ways to learn some of it.

1) experimentation, as has already been reccomended

2) Books like Darrell Craig's "Shihan Te" and Rick Clarks "75 Downblocks". These will give you a good start in unlocking the bunkai to many kata.
 

RRouuselot

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upnorthkyosa said:
I practice Tang Soo Do, which is a Korean Martial Art, and we practice some kata that originated in Okinawa. I am seeking a Japanese/Okinawan perspective on which Bunkai from a particular kata best transfer into Kumite. The kata that I actually "know" and can comment on are: all of the Pyung Ahns (pinans), all of the Naihanchis, Bassai O and Te, and Chinto.

Actually all techniques in karate kata are defensive/protection techniques and not meant for sport type sparring. Some can be adapted for sport but most werent made for use when rules must be adhered to.
Kata like Naihanchi look simple and straight forward but have extensive applications in them so I do not recommend learning from a book or video. You gotta have a teacher..and a good one at that.
I dont recommend anything from Rick Clarks line of BS. The guy is a hack.
My teacher has an association dojo somewhere near where you if memory serves. I would suggest you either visit that school or go to an Oyata seminar when one is available. (sorry if that sounds like a plug for my teacher but it isnt) I am sure there are a lot of people with some skill but it seems the ones mentioned on these BBs are almost always the ones with the best marketing skills and not technical skills.
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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RRouuselot said:
Actually all techniques in karate kata are defensive/protection techniques and not meant for sport type sparring. Some can be adapted for sport but most werent made for use when rules must be adhered to.
For some of the techniques like joint locks and neck breaks, it is obvious that they are innappropriate for sparring. However, I believe that some of them are adaptable and could possibly improve my sparring. Right now, my sparring looks a great deal like kick boxing. I haven't thought much about trying to blend the Bunkai into this. It was the article that you posted about Choki Motobu using the opening move for Pinan 4 that sparked my interest.

RRouuselot said:
Kata like Naihanchi look simple and straight forward but have extensive applications in them so I do not recommend learning from a book or video. You gotta have a teacher..and a good one at that..
I have a great respect for my teacher, but he lives three hours away. I have to travel to train and ask questions like these. I think that discussions like these can be helpful, because I do have a pretty good background and I'm good at working presented ideas.

RRouuselot said:
I dont recommend anything from Rick Clarks line of BS. The guy is a hack.
I checked his book out at Barnes and Noble. I thought there was some good stuff in there. Why do you feel this way?

RRouuselot said:
My teacher has an association dojo somewhere near where you if memory serves. I would suggest you either visit that school or go to an Oyata seminar when one is available. (sorry if that sounds like a plug for my teacher but it isnt) I am sure there are a lot of people with some skill but it seems the ones mentioned on these BBs are almost always the ones with the best marketing skills and not technical skills.
I am greatful for your suggestions and I know that you are attempting to help me grow as a martial artist. FWIW, I trust your sincerity. However, the dojos you suggested in Wisconsin were further away then my teacher's dojang. In this state, most people live in the southern part of the state by Milwaukee and Madison. Superior is about as far from those places as one can get and still be in the state of WI. With that being said, any help with affiliates in Minnesota would be appreciated. Superior is much closer to population areas in MN then in WI. If you could PM me with some of that info, that would be great.
 

RRouuselot

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upnorthkyosa said:
I checked his book out at Barnes and Noble. I thought there was some good stuff in there. Why do you feel this way?

His background and training are extremely questionable for starters. I have met a 4th or 5th dan from his group that showed me some of what he teaches..nothing worked.
I also know a few people that went to seminars given by him and said waste of time and money.
 

robertmrivers

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Hello

"It was the article that you posted about Choki Motobu using the opening move for Pinan 4 that sparked my interest. "

Missed that post...what was the gist of it?

On to the question...In my opinion, you need to take the principles of self defense that is taught in the kata that work and apply them to sparring. The problem is, you have to REALLY know what the kata means...and it can't be learned just by doing the kata over and over. There are principles of "unlocking" the kata that one has to be taught before the true principles of karate can be understood...AND THEN you can apply those principles to the sparring. The principles can be applied to anything...some people say that "kata doesn't translate to sport sparring" ...not true... they are thinking "technique" not "principle"... Body movement (tai sabaki), pressure (seme), range (ma ai) timing (go no sen, sen no sen, sen sen no sen) are all "principles" and can be applied to anything.
The only rub is that if you want to pull it directly out of the kata, you really need to know these principles and how they apply to the kata and how the meaning (bunkai) of the kata is interpreted.
But, if you want the short course, just spar with people who practice legitimate Okinawan Karate. You can pick up the stance, timing, and movement differences after only a little bit of time with them. One piece of advice, if you really want to improve your sparring, stop worrying about the points...just fight, don't stop when a "point" is scored, and don't keep score. Just fight.
Best of luck to you

Rob


Robert M. Rivers
5th Dan
Motobu Ha Shito Ryu
International Seishinkai Karatedo Union
 
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Makalakumu

Makalakumu

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robertmrivers said:
Hello

"It was the article that you posted about Choki Motobu using the opening move for Pinan 4 that sparked my interest. "

Missed that post...what was the gist of it?
This information is located in a different thread. I believe its in the Karate forum.

robertmrivers said:
On to the question...In my opinion, you need to take the principles of self defense that is taught in the kata that work and apply them to sparring. The problem is, you have to REALLY know what the kata means...and it can't be learned just by doing the kata over and over. There are principles of "unlocking" the kata that one has to be taught before the true principles of karate can be understood...AND THEN you can apply those principles to the sparring. The principles can be applied to anything...some people say that "kata doesn't translate to sport sparring" ...not true... they are thinking "technique" not "principle"... Body movement (tai sabaki), pressure (seme), range (ma ai) timing (go no sen, sen no sen, sen sen no sen) are all "principles" and can be applied to anything.
This is how my teacher taught us and it is how I teach now. The principle in kata transfer nicely and are very informative for sparring. My current training goal is to transfer more kata technique into my sparring.

robertmrivers said:
The only rub is that if you want to pull it directly out of the kata, you really need to know these principles and how they apply to the kata and how the meaning (bunkai) of the kata is interpreted.
My teacher teaches the bunkai of the kata we learn and we are taught how to interpret what we see and look for different "layers" in our forms. I have many ideas that spring from this base. Sometimes, when we are training, a good example really helps...especially from a fresh perspective. I'm hoping to tap into the experience on MT and experiment.

robertmrivers said:
But, if you want the short course, just spar with people who practice legitimate Okinawan Karate. You can pick up the stance, timing, and movement differences after only a little bit of time with them. One piece of advice, if you really want to improve your sparring, stop worrying about the points...just fight, don't stop when a "point" is scored, and don't keep score. Just fight.
I had the pleasure of sparring with some folks who trained in Uechi Ryu. This style is very different from TSD. I'm hoping that some people who practice our same forms with chime in...
 
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