Bully instructors

[sgtmac_46]

There's a giant difference between being a decisive leader and being a bully. It simply doesn't take yelling, humiliation and intimidation to get people to respect your leadership and get the best out of a group of people.

Or, putting it a different way, isn't the distinction between the OP video of Kazuo Chiba Sensei and Chef Ramsey pretty glaring?

And yet Ramsay is extraordinarily more successful than many 'nice chefs'.

Ramsay's way isn't MY way, but to say it doesn't take what he does to be as successful as he is is kind of silly when neither you nor I ARE as successful as he is........so what the hell do we know about what it does or doesn't take?

The fact is, that nothing succeeds like success.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.

Ooooopss!

Patton was a bully.........he bullied his way across Europe kicking the *** of the enemy beyond the abilities of other commanders.

The term 'bully' is completely subjective.

 

[harlan]

If you measure 'success' by notoriety, then yes, he is. Frankly, as a cook for 14 years, I've seen my share of egos and they are ALWAYS a problem in the long term.

And yet Ramsay is extraordinarily more successful than many 'nice chefs'.

Ramsay's way isn't MY way, but to say it doesn't take what he does to be as successful as he is is kind of silly when neither you nor I ARE as successful as he is........so what the hell do we know about what it does or doesn't take?

The fact is, that nothing succeeds like success.

 

[jks9199]

Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.

That doesn't mean he's a leader. It just means he manages to produce successful restaurants and has trained some good people -- who may have been just as good trained under someone else. It may mean he's succeeded IN SPITE of his management style...

Leadership goes beyond getting people to do what you want. It's getting people to want to do what you need them to do. The clip of Mario Battali is telling... I'd rather work for Mario than Gordon, any day. Somehow I suspect that Chef Battali's staff looks forward to coming to work to see what they'll do together rather than simply putting up with work to get to the payday.

 

[Steve]

Yes, Gordon Ramsey has obviously no leadership qualities. He's only the most successful restauranteur in the world with 3 Michelin stars, and only two of his personally trained chefs have earned Michelin stars.

I guess it depends on how you measure success and the quality of a leader.

And yet Ramsay is extraordinarily more successful than many 'nice chefs'.

Ramsay's way isn't MY way, but to say it doesn't take what he does to be as successful as he is is kind of silly when neither you nor I ARE as successful as he is........so what the hell do we know about what it does or doesn't take?

The fact is, that nothing succeeds like success.

Once again, I would argue your definition of success. I consider myself extremely successful. I have a family I adore, a successful marriage going on 18 years, and a reputation for competence in a position of leadership in a group of intelligent, creative people whom I manage to motivate without bullying them. We make enough money to buy anything we need and most anything we want.

While I don't know restaurants, I do know leadership. I also know bullies.

And once again, just to be very clear, I didn't say he was unsuccessful. I DID say that he is both successful AND a bully. The two are unrelated. He simply uses his success as validation for his behavior.

That doesn't mean he's a leader. It just means he manages to produce successful restaurants and has trained some good people -- who may have been just as good trained under someone else. It may mean he's succeeded IN SPITE of his management style...

Leadership goes beyond getting people to do what you want. It's getting people to want to do what you need them to do. The clip of Mario Battali is telling... I'd rather work for Mario than Gordon, any day. Somehow I suspect that Chef Battali's staff looks forward to coming to work to see what they'll do together rather than simply putting up with work to get to the payday.

QFT. Glad I'm not the only one.

 

[yorkshirelad]

That doesn't mean he's a leader. It just means he manages to produce successful restaurants and has trained some good people -- who may have been just as good trained under someone else. It may mean he's succeeded IN SPITE of his management style...

Leadership goes beyond getting people to do what you want. It's getting people to want to do what you need them to do. The clip of Mario Battali is telling... I'd rather work for Mario than Gordon, any day. Somehow I suspect that Chef Battali's staff looks forward to coming to work to see what they'll do together rather than simply putting up with work to get to the payday.

You obviously have no idea about Gordon Ramsey. Before he was the SUCCESSFUL tv personaltiy he is today, he was the executive chef of A to Z's Aubergine restaurant in Southern England. The brass at A to Z wanted to fire one of the chefs in Gordon's kitchen, so he gave them an ultermatum, "Fire my chef and you'll lose me". They decided to fire the guy, so Gordon left with him. Now ramsey has always bee known as a hot head and his staff were treated mercilessly by him, as he was during his apprenticeship by Marco Pierre-White. All the kitchen staff in Aubergine decided to leave and follow Ramsey.
Now this is all before Ramsey was the millionaire we know him to be now. He had very little money, but borrowed what he could to start his own restaurant. When his sous chef Sargant was asked why all the staff left with Ramsey, evn though their futures were uncertain in doing so, he replied, "What is more impressive on a resume, I worked for A to Z restaurants, or I worked for Gordon Ramsey?"
Gordon ramsey is a self made man. He doesn't just open restaurants and hire people to become the executive chef, he personally trains and guides his chefs. Most of his long term students are now successful restauranteurs in their own right.

His leadership speaks for itself.

 

[Steve]

You obviously have no idea about Gordon Ramsey. Before he was the SUCCESSFUL tv personaltiy he is today, he was the executive chef of A to Z's Aubergine restaurant in Southern England. The brass at A to Z wanted to fire one of the chefs in Gordon's kitchen, so he gave them an ultermatum, "Fire my chef and you'll lose me". They decided to fire the guy, so Gordon left with him. Now ramsey has always bee known as a hot head and his staff were treated mercilessly by him, as he was during his apprenticeship by Marco Pierre-White. All the kitchen staff in Aubergine decided to leave and follow Ramsey.
Now this is all before Ramsey was the millionaire we know him to be now. He had very little money, but borrowed what he could to start his own restaurant. When his sous chef Sargant was asked why all the staff left with Ramsey, evn though their futures were uncertain in doing so, he replied, "What is more impressive on a resume, I worked for A to Z restaurants, or I worked for Gordon Ramsey?"
Gordon ramsey is a self made man. He doesn't just open restaurants and hire people to become the executive chef, he personally trains and guides his chefs. Most of his long term students are now successful restauranteurs in their own right.

His leadership speaks for itself.

LOL. He's a very successful bully. Or, maybe I'd better back off a little, since I don't know the guy. He intentionally assumes the persona of a bully on TV. If it's an act, it's a good one. He plays a very successful bully on TV.

The point remains, however, that he's successful in spite of being a bully, not because of it. There are many, many examples of leaders who were not insecure or spoiled enough to believe that they could demean and intimidate employees and abuse their positions of authority.

 

[yorkshirelad]

LOL. He's a very successful bully. Or, maybe I'd better back off a little, since I don't know the guy. He intentionally assumes the persona of a bully on TV. If it's an act, it's a good one. He plays a very successful bully on TV.

The point remains, however, that he's successful in spite of being a bully, not because of it. There are many, many examples of leaders who were not insecure or spoiled enough to believe that they could demean and intimidate employees and abuse their positions of authority.

Again, his demeaner does not negate the fact that he is a successful LEADER. If you think he's a bully, stay away from his hometown of Glasgow. If you're offended by Ramsey, you'd get eaten for breakfast by the OAPs.

 

[Steve]

Again, his demeaner does not negate the fact that he is a successful LEADER. If you think he's a bully, stay away from his hometown of Glasgow. If you're offended by Ramsey, you'd get eaten for breakfast by the OAPs.

Why so angry, yorkshirelad? Is he a relative? Here's an idea. Instead of telling me what I should or shouldn't do, try addressing the points in the thread. He's a famous, wealthy bully. And, as I said before, his success in spite of his bullying seems only to have made him worse. He's successful and also a bully. Why is this so hard to understand? You don't have to be a douchebag in order to be a leader. The bullying isn't what makes him a good leader. If he's a good leader, it's in spite of his douchebaggery, not because of it.

And believe me, I've had plenty of experience with bullies and so far, not been eaten by any of them.

As an aside, what the heck is an OAP? I did a quick google search and the only one that made sense was Old Age Pensioner. Why are they so angry and insecure, and why would they want to eat me for breakfast?

 

[geezer]

As an aside, what the heck is an OAP? I did a quick google search and the only one that made sense was Old Age Pensioner. Why are they so angry and insecure, and why would they want to eat me for breakfast?

If the OAPs in the UK are anything like the cranky old retirees we get out here in Arizona I know exactly what Yorkshirelad is talking about. Watch out Steve!

 

[yorkshirelad]

Why so angry, yorkshirelad? Is he a relative? Here's an idea. Instead of telling me what I should or shouldn't do, try addressing the points in the thread. He's a famous, wealthy bully. And, as I said before, his success in spite of his bullying seems only to have made him worse. He's successful and also a bully. Why is this so hard to understand? You don't have to be a douchebag in order to be a leader. The bullying isn't what makes him a good leader. If he's a good leader, it's in spite of his douchebaggery, not because of it.

And believe me, I've had plenty of experience with bullies and so far, not been eaten by any of them.

As an aside, what the heck is an OAP? I did a quick google search and the only one that made sense was Old Age Pensioner. Why are they so angry and insecure, and why would they want to eat me for breakfast?

Why so defensive. Surely the words "eaten for breakfast" and "OAP" would denote a certain amount of tongue in cheek. Unfortunately all the icons don't work on my computer at work.
Now, I live in Southern California. I've been accused many times of yelling at people. Many of these times I wasn't aware that my voice was raised. Then I was told that yelling in the US is speaking at someone. Where Ramsey is from yelling means something completely different. I would consider a Glaswegian to be yelling at me if he was screaming at me an inch from my face. In Glasgow and Britain as a whole, people can be very intense. It doesn't make it better or worse, just different.

I've heard some horror stories about young martial artists training under their teachers and the torture that they went through, yet they reminice with fondness. Tanemura of the Genbukan tells of his father knocking him out regularly as a young child and waking him up with buckets of water. To you and many others, this would constitute bullying and child abuse, but to Tanemura he looks back on it as a valuable learning experience. It's horses for courses mate! Most of the people who went through a successful appreniceship with Ramsey fondly reminice about their time with him. They consider it the Ranger school of the culinary arts.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Having worked with many English contractors over the years (in the space industry) I can say that there is a definite difference in communication between Americans and Brits. the latter are much more direct, use stronger language, and don't care about political correctness.

Gordon Ramsey is a Brit. Normal conversation in many UK businesses would have many Americans running to the court for filing suit.
'Good morning, ugly bastard' is a perfectly normal way to greet each other on a monday morning, at least it was among the people I knew, which were at the time mostly engineers.

What Gordon does is one form of leadership. there are other forms but his style is not invalid, looked at from the context in which he worked. That would not work in the US but it does in the UK.

Same with Italians and their way of conducting business meetings, with lots of armwaving and fingerpointing, calling people 'bastardo', losing their temper... and afterwards everybody agrees it was a good meeting (this happened with a colleague of mine at Alcatel Space). Americans would be shocked yet it was perfectly normal for them.

 

[Rayban]

Forgive the late comer but back to the OP.

I personally like coming home from training in pain. It means I've pushed myself harder and learned something.

I don't see any bullying in that clip. Actually I'd be quite excited to be the Uke if I had the necessary skill to survive it

As for Ramsey.

He's a brutish man who is results driven. Not a bad thing, but it does leave a lot of areas that need polishing. I'd call him more a manager rather than a leader.

A manager knows how best to do... A leader knows what's best to do.

 

[Flea]

A manager knows how best to do... A leader knows what's best to do.

Rayban, that's a very cool quote. Could you elaborate on that?

 

[Rayban]

Rayban, that's a very cool quote. Could you elaborate on that?

Of course

Just because someone knows how best to achieve their objective doesn't necessarily make them a good leader. It just means they know how to achieve their goal.

A leader is one who questions the goals. "Why is this my goal"?

Leaders are people who inspire followers by choosing certain goals (good or bad). But they have a moral high-ground (or low ground if evil is your thing )that draws people in.

A leader knows why, while a manager knows how.

I don't really think Ramsey knows why he does what he does. If he was really just interested in becoming the best chef in the world, he would spend his time cooking and not making TV shows. He knows how to do all this stuff but I'm not convinced he knows why.

Clear as mud hope that made sense.

 

[Steve]

Honestly, guys, I think it's clear that he's a leader. He inspires a shared vision, which is a common trait of a good leader. He sets clear expectations, is obviously a shrewd businessman. I just want to be clear that he is, IMO, a leader.

My point is only that he is ALSO a bully, and that he doesn't NEED to be one in order to be successful. If he truly runs his restaurants with the yelling, swearing and humiliation, he leaves an emotional wake behind him that's destructive to getting results. He's actually working counter to his goals. I'm not a touchy feely guy. Simply from a practical point of view, being a bully in a position of leadership is destructive. These kinds of teams succeed in spite of it, not because of it.

I would guess that he doesn't actually run his restaurants like that. I just don't believe he could and be successful. Working under a bully creates a group that is disjointed where everyone is off balance and thinking only about survival... not being the one whom Gordon yells at next. If his kitchens run like that, he'd be out of business.

As a slight aside, the link is to a Washington State Dept of Labor pdf on workplace bullying, just so you guys understand a little better what I mean when I say that he's a bully. http://www.lni.wa.gov/safety/research/files/bullying.pdf

 

[SensibleManiac]

On the point of Ramsay, yes he's successful but I wonder how much of what we see is for the sake of TV and ratings? It makes for good tv.
As for his agreessive form of "leadership"? If I knew a manager/chef was that aggressive with his staff, I wouldn't eat there, something about stress and food I don't like. It shows when a cook loves what they're doing, it comes through in their cooking, when they are too stressed, that comes through in their cooking too and I definitely wouldn't pay for it.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm pretty sure the TV Ramsey is different then the real life Ramsey. You can tell watching his shows towards the end when hes not playing the "roll" he seems to really care about the people hes helping.

 

[ballen0351]

Now you want to see a bully go find my Police Academy Defensive Tactics instructor. I still fear him and hes almost 70 now. Ive never been punched in the face that hard in my life.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I guess it depends on how you measure success and the quality of a leader.

Once again, I would argue your definition of success. I consider myself extremely successful. I have a family I adore, a successful marriage going on 18 years, and a reputation for competence in a position of leadership in a group of intelligent, creative people whom I manage to motivate without bullying them. We make enough money to buy anything we need and most anything we want.

While I don't know restaurants, I do know leadership. I also know bullies.

And once again, just to be very clear, I didn't say he was unsuccessful. I DID say that he is both successful AND a bully. The two are unrelated. He simply uses his success as validation for his behavior.

QFT. Glad I'm not the only one.

If we can choose our definitions of 'success' then who's unsuccessful?