bujinkan for combat ??

[Ronnin]

Now I'm not trying to piss anyone off here so calm down. I was on you tube and just came across this, thought I'd share and see what you guys (and gals) l think. I'm also a Bujinkan member but I do believe there are some good points here that are being made.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YVaG9BL0hw&feature=related

 

[kaizasosei]

i have a knife in my pocket all the time. i call it bujin. i also know a shitload of cheap moves and can scare the living daylights out of most anyone if i chose to. but yes, there are some truths everywhere-

j

 

[Ronnin]

i have a knife in my pocket all the time. i call it bujinkan. i also know a shitload of cheap moves and can scare the living daylights out of most anyone if i chose to. but yes, there are some truths everywhere-

j

Not really sure what that means.........but okay.

 

[kaizasosei]

sorry for sounding sortof psycho but, i've seen some of those coolaid clips already....

i was just trying to cut to the chase and share my opinion that combat at its most extreme is something mortally dangerous and fundementally nasty.
bujinkan trains in a host of really dangerous weapons-

i would even include firearms-

in essence, really lethal ****.

 

[Cryozombie]

*Yawn* Posted HERE and discussed to death.

Next.

 

[Ronnin]

*Yawn* Posted HERE and discussed to death.

Next.

so what if it's been discussed, how about letting some new people share their opinion's.

 

[kaizasosei]

i'm sure there are plenty of really real and tough bujinkan members. i believe in the principles, but i do agree that sparing is important.

i've taken a break from bujinkan training for mma my own reasons, but that doesnt mean i dont agree with the concept that bbt is combat oriented.

i can see both sides..

best is to keep being objective as well as keep an open mind.

 

[shesulsa]

I'd say it's damn easy and ... something else ... to assemble a few clips of either beginners or untalented people and paint an entire system with that brush. It's also easy and ... something else ... to throw up a few good clips of quality pugilism and call it a martial art because someone's getting their *** kicked.

What I've seen (and granted, I've seen little) of booj stuff, I'd want the guys I've seen on MY side.

Have fun beating a dead horse.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I have seen this video before.

Watching someone learn how to perform a technique is no way to judge if it is effective or not because you are not watching the end product.
I have seen throws used in Budo Taijutsu that are similar to Judo throws,joint locks similar to Judo as well. I imagine if the arts were created in a edo period or earlier battle era maybe there is some truth to it being a combat art.

 

[Cryozombie]

so what if it's been discussed, how about letting some new people share their opinion's.

How 'bout you do it in the existing thread? This ******** doesn't merit 2.

 

[ElfTengu]

It is simple.

You train in Bujinkan to be good at Bujinkan.

You train in Self Defence to be good at Self Defence.

You train in Combat to be good at Combat.

Bujinkan per se, is not Self Defence or Combat, and as has been said, it will not make a 'fighter' out of anyone who does not already have the mindset and a bit of experience to be one.

But you can train to get your Self Defence in top notch condition, and you can train to be safer on the streets of Rio or Kabul, or in law enforcement etc, if you integrate Bujinkan into your self defence and combat training.

Lets face it, if you want to send 100 young men to war, do you send them to a local Bujinka dojo or an army camp? If you want to send 100 law enforcement officers out on the streets do you send them to a dojo or for police training? And if you want your sister to be safe at University but she only wants to train in condensed self defence strategies for a couple of months and not spend years perfecting Kihon Happo and Gyokko Ryu kata, do you really send her to what generally constitutes a Bujinkan dojo?

Lots of people use Bujinkan for combat, law enforcement, self defence, bodyguarding, even sports martial arts in some cases, but the Bujinkan is only an aspect of what they do, even if it is the underlying core.

Look at youtube, look at all the black belts, do you really think they are all real mean tough streetfighters? Look at their students, doing floppy complacent, compliant training with friends they can trust, a university hobby, no different to football (and probably less use in a tight spot).

The Bujinkan is a fantastic thing. But if you want to use it for combat and real fighting, you need to train as though you are going to do so, or you will be in a real state of shock and a lot of pain very quickly when you find yourself in a situation where you need to protect yourself and others from harm.

We are told to beware of wolves in sheeps clothing, but we should be far more concerned about sheep in wolves clothing, and should not become such a thing ourselves.

 

[stephen]

You train in Bujinkan to be good at Bujinkan.

I don't.

Being 'good at Bujinkan' isn't really anything in it's own right; I train in it because it's a 'force multiplier' in many aspects of my life.

As for the 'fighter' stuff: If you mean that it won't make someone 'aggressive' - that's probably true. If you mean that someone won't be able to defend themselves - then I wouldn't agree.

P.S. Are you going to be able to come to Jim Morganelli's seminar in November in London?

 

[ElfTengu]

I don't.

Being 'good at Bujinkan' isn't really anything in it's own right; I train in it because it's a 'force multiplier' in many aspects of my life.

As for the 'fighter' stuff: If you mean that it won't make someone 'aggressive' - that's probably true. If you mean that someone won't be able to defend themselves - then I wouldn't agree.

P.S. Are you going to be able to come to Jim Morganelli's seminar in November in London?

Sorry Stephen, my missus is still heavily pregnant and all that so I am going to miss a lot for a while. I'm also devastated to be missing the Pedro gig this weekend as my teacher rates him extremely highly but there you go.

I see where you are coming from but although aggression is part of what I am saying, it's not everything. I think the Bujinkan is weak on the percentage of people who can use it to actually fight with, compared with practitioners of other arts. Some of those other arts I consider to be vastly inferior in content and principle and some are no more than sports, but they do do the business. But don't listen to me. Look at what is out there in martial arts, look at the nasty people who bash people up on a weekly basis in our rough estates and town centres, and look at your students or classmates, are they really the mustard?

I'm afraid being good at Bujinkan really doesn't equate with being good at fighting. It should do but only if the reality of bloody brutal violence is constantly borne in mind during training and not just country dancing in black karategi.

Go to any seminar, any typical class, and come back and tell me that in your heart of hearts the people there were more effective combatants there than in a typical MMA gym, kickboxing club, judo club, Krav Maga class, BJJ barra.

Give me a choice of someone to have a real fight with, out of all the martial artists out there, and I have to say that a fellow Bujinkanner would be high on my list, but I would run a mile from the average sports martial artist (and probably not fast enough as they tend to be 90% fitter than us as well).

 

[Cryozombie]

Go to any seminar, any typical class, and come back and tell me that in your heart of hearts the people there were more effective combatants there than in a typical MMA gym, kickboxing club, judo club, Krav Maga class, BJJ barra.

Here we go again...

MMA R0XX0RS BUJINKAN is TEH SUCK

 

[Kreth]

I'm afraid being good at Bujinkan really doesn't equate with being good at fighting. It should do but only if the reality of bloody brutal violence is constantly borne in mind during training and not just country dancing in black karategi.

Good point. I've trained with many people over the years at seminars, and some were shocked if you made even the slightest contact with a punch. A certain now-defunct NYC dojo was notorious for this, IMO.

 

[Obi Wan Shinobi]

Basically I believe in my opinion that it boils down to the Artist not the Art. All martial arts are good as long as the practioner and the teacher train in the proper manner and for modern day use. You have to have a fighting spirit, strong will and actually believe in what you are fighting for. Everything else is just training.

 

[Archangel M]

I think the issue on this thread is the marketing of "Bujinkan is a COMBAT ART". Implying that its more relavent for "combat" than other arts.

Is it?

 

[allenjp]

I have seen this video before.

Watching someone learn how to perform a technique is no way to judge if it is effective or not because you are not watching the end product.
I have seen throws used in Budo Taijutsu that are similar to Judo throws,joint locks similar to Judo as well. I imagine if the arts were created in a edo period or earlier battle era maybe there is some truth to it being a combat art.

The reason you see similarities in techniques between these arts is because Judo was created by mixing "the best" techniques from the numerous Jujutsu ryuha. In fact, Jigoro Kano had many conferences with the grandmasters of different Jujutsu schools, including...yep you guessed it, the grandmaster of kukishin ryu at the time, Toshitsugu Takamatsu (hatsumi's teacher). Now Hatsumi is grandmaster of Kukishin ryu (unless you ask Shoto Tanemura). What Kano was actually diong was removing some of the more lethal or "combat" aspects of Jujutsu to develop a more sport type art to preserve Jujutsu in the anti military society that Japan had become at that time.
Hatsumi also had extensive training in Judo as a youth.

To me, the question has never been whether or not the Bujinkan arts were combat arts, they came from the Samurai and Ninja, who were the combatants of Japan for a very long time. The only question is if they are still relevant and effective today. I believe they are. In fact it is said that most of the fundamentals of BJJ came from Fusen Ryu Jujutsu, because at the time that Maeda brought Judo (called Kano's Jujutsu at that time) to Brazil, Kano's school had just suffered it's first defeat to the ground techniques of the Fusen Ryu in a competition, and had decided to incorporate the techniques into Judo. I think we can all admit that BJJ is certainly relevant and effective in today's world, and it's roots share somewhat of a common history with the Bujinkan.

As for the videos, anyone can take anything out of context and portray it in any way they want-just ask Michael Moore. A few isolated video clips don't prove that the author's point is true.

 

[allenjp]

I think the issue on this thread is the marketing of "Bujinkan is a COMBAT ART". Implying that its more relavent for "combat" than other arts.

Is it?

Actually I think that this marketing is more trying to establish that just because you don't see much ninjutsu in the UFC, doesn't mean it isn't effective. Their point is that sport arts have rules which limit their combat effectiveness. The Bujinkan has no rules, and is not designed for the ring. It was designed by people who only fought when death was on the line.

 

[kaizasosei]

many great things said. I'm starting to think i shouldn't say much more because i feel i am not able to be objective enough.

the one that follows the fool is more foolish than the fool.

however, my opinion is set, i do think that bujinkan techniques and style have some of the greatest potential amongst martial arts. it depends on the fighter to make the most of all resources and knowledge available.