Bridging the Gap - Forms and Partner Drills to Sparring

[Dinkydoo]

I asked this question on another forum but since there are much more active members over here I thought I'd bring the same topic over for discussion.

Bit of background:

I've done a variety of CMAs for about 3 years now and have settled into sticking with 7 Star Praying Mantis and Wing Chun in the past year. I haven't had much 'gloves on' sparring experience over the years as my first club only saw it as a formality for gradings (I did it for the final 3 gradings before leaving that club) and the club I'm at now doesn't do much continuous stuff at all. Clarification: we do live partner drills where not everything is scripted, but we don't get the sparring gear on and go a few rounds....

Problem: I've started training at my friends (for want of a better description) MMA club, in addition to the Kung Fu I do, and I'm getting absolutely destroyed in sparring when I try to do anything other than box back against these guys and even then, because I'm not a trained kickboxer, I'm getting roughed up pretty badly!

Some of the advice I've been given on the other martial arts forum was to do lots and lots and lots of partner drills and to create 5 fist strike combinations made up of techniques and principles from the Mantis or Wing Chun I do and drill the absolute crap out of them. Once I have them down then start using these against a sparring partner who will give me a bit of an opening now and then so I can learn how to use these traditional techniques in a live sparring environment.

This to me sounds like pretty good advice and I've already drilled a few combos so many times against my punch bag that i tore my hands up a bit - I was so unhappy with myself after being beaten badly that I didn't want to stop training yesterday until I'd gotten a few combos down really well.

As I'm posting this in the CMA forum, I'm looking for any other advice or discussion that can be had around the issue of TCMA clubs not taking students from being able to do forms and partner drills to sparring - I love Kung Fu so I'm really not looking to style/club bash here.

Has anyone here been in the same situation as myself? How did you overcome it?

For what it's worth, I'm still training in Mantis and Wing Chun most days and going to class along with the Kickboxing/Grappling club I've joined. My strategy is to learn and practice the techniques at Kung Fu, create combos and drills that I can do at home that translate well to sparring, get sparring experience every week at this MMA club and gradually introduce the traditional elements of my training into it.

I know in going to take a hell of a beating along the way but it sounds like this strategy might work....

 

[wingchun100]

You don't want to get too stuck in patterns. Otherwise that will be your "go to" set of moves and if they don't fit the situation, you will be in the same bad spot all over again. Fights are unpredictable; approaching them with a strict set of the same techniques all lined up in a row isn't good, even if you develop MULTIPLE sets. Your opponent most likely won't have a pattern, so neither should you.

How long have you been doing those two styles in particular? It might be a simple case of you being used to applying those styles in class ONLY. In other words, you are used to the energy given to you by other Praying Mantis/Wing chun people. In that case, it's simply a matter of learning how those MMA people fight.

 

[drop bear]

So you are trying to exclusively CounterPunch boxing combinations? Honestly you are going to have to be pretty bloody slick to pull that off.

 

[Dinkydoo]

You don't want to get too stuck in patterns. Otherwise that will be your "go to" set of moves and if they don't fit the situation, you will be in the same bad spot all over again. Fights are unpredictable; approaching them with a strict set of the same techniques all lined up in a row isn't good, even if you develop MULTIPLE sets. Your opponent most likely won't have a pattern, so neither should you.

I understand what you're getting at but the sets I'm drilling aren't distinct in that they follow a strict pattern of unique movements every time they're executed. I use the same techniques in multiple combos but executed in different permutations. Once I've drilled a permutation of techniques into muscle memory I've been trying to change it up without thinking about it mid-execution - that's been my main focus of the bag section of my workout today. I don't want to fall into the trap of fighting with an obvious pattern of movements.

How long have you been doing those two styles in particular? It might be a simple case of you being used to applying those styles in class ONLY. In other words, you are used to the energy given to you by other Praying Mantis/Wing chun people. In that case, it's simply a matter of learning how those MMA people fight.

I think this is part of it. I've only being doing the Mantis for a year and Wing Chun only for a few months - I've picked things up a lot faster than a beginner because I've had a 2 year base in something else to work with that taught me some basics.

I'm definitely not used to the 'beserker' type of attack where an opponent throws weight behind a big flurry of punches and kicks. In class we've spent most our time doing partner drills where although there is an element of randomness, were not trying to take each other's head off, and we're following a general pattern of 'I attack for a bit, you attack for a bit' and it moves back and forward to develop technique - we're bare knuckled in class so although accidents do happen, we're conscious of the fact that nobody wants to go to work in the morning missing a tooth!

We do train realistically and aim to hit each other but we don't do continuous rounds of free-fighting, which I think is also part of why I'm struggling to use the techniques in sparring.

Although I've been doing the Wing Chun only a few months I felt it worked better against the kickboxers, partially because I was fighting guys who were much taller and heavier than I - I could sit back and wait for them to attack, and when they did I was in quite quickly by using something basic like a tan or pak followed by chain punching before moving back out again. Initiating the attack with some mantis techniques just got me a side kick to the abdomen, as everyone I fought had longer reach than I.

 

[wingchun100]

I think you just need to give it time. There is a key word I pick up on when you describe your partners: KICKboxing. Get your entry better. Once you are in close at punching range, their kicks will be useless, although you still have to watch out for elbows and knees. Also, while you are trying to BRIDGE the gap, they will be trying to MAINTAIN the gap.

 

[Dinkydoo]

So you are trying to exclusively CounterPunch boxing combinations? Honestly you are going to have to be pretty bloody slick to pull that off.

What do you mean?

I'm not training to exclusively use my fists, but the hands create space for the feet. I can stand back and initiate an attack with a kick all day and not really get anywhere because my kicking isn't good enough - although I've not met many people who lead with the feet and are that successful (unless I guess you're a TKD guy).

 

[drop bear]

What do you mean?

I'm not exclusively training to only use my fists, but the hands create space for the feet. I can stand back and initiate an attack with a kick all day and not really get anywhere because my kicking isn't good enough - although I've not met many people who lead with the feet and are that successful (unless I guess you're a TKD guy).

What principles are you actually trying to do that are not working? From what I know of chun there seems to be a lot of counter punching and a lot of fighting from inside the pocket.

Both of which you can do but you just have to be smart about it.

Counter punching as in parrying the hands and striking back at the same time.

 

[Dinkydoo]

The Wing Chun worked better than any Mantis I tried and I was using the general 'stay with what comes, attack when the hands are free' principle. Basically, block a fist strike, stick with it, follow in as the hand is retracted and launch counter from that opening. It worked a bit but they got wise to it and started sitting back themselves and then simply beating the **** out of me by overwhelming me with attacks after blocking my initial strike.

The Mantis I was trying was smothering their hands - which is usually done with a combination of grabs and circular fist/palm techniques at medium/close range. We were forced to wear boxing gloves (I wasn't allowed to wear my fingerless ones) so grabbing went out the window and circular fist strikes became a bit of a nightmare! Regardless of that, I wasn't very good at applying these techniques in some 'out of class' sparring with friends last week either - and I was wearing suitable gloves.

After putting a few hours into chaining attack and defence (shadow boxing) and then doing the same on my heavy bag today, I'm actually feeling a bit more confident about putting the gloves back on next week. I think I just need to train specifically for random/sparring situations with less focus on prearranged drills or extracts from forms which is what I've spent a lot of ( probably too much) time on up until this point.

With TMAists famously being regarded as unable to use their styles in competitions or sparring against the likes of kickboxers/Muay Thai and MMA folks, I thought other people may have had difficulty when taking their traditional based skills into the ring, and it would be good to hear how they overcame those difficulties.

Disclaimer: I don't want a TMA vs Competitive Arts debate, I know the TMAs I train in work, I've just obviously not been focussing on training in the right areas for what I want to use them for.

More sparring experience and what i'm currently doing at home outside of class may be the answer, I guess I'll find out in a few months when hopefully I'm holding my own much better.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah the punching style still sounds like counter punching. Which you can do but it relies on them committing to the hit and you being able to tell what is going to come. If you try to do it too much you get confused and then get over run by the other guy.

Pick one entry and figure that out. I counter punch off the jab a fair bit and get away with it. That is probably the easiest and will give you the most benefit to start with.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My strategy is to learn and practice the techniques at Kung Fu, create combos and drills that I can do at home that translate well to sparring, get sparring experience every week at this MMA club and gradually introduce the traditional elements of my training into it.

Are you interesting in the "striking art" sparring only, or are you interesting in both "striking art" and "grappling art" combination sparring?

In a

- "pure striking art sparring', you have to knock your opponent down. You have to be good in your striking tools such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, ...

- "striking art" and "grappling art" combination sparring, your goal is to obtain your clinch ASAP. You will need good "entering strategy" and "finish strategy". You have to be good in your clinch skill, throwing skill, and ground skill.

 

[Dinkydoo]

Are you interesting in the "striking art" sparring only, or are you interesting in both "striking art" and "grappling art" combination sparring?

In a

- "pure striking art sparring', you have to knock your opponent down. You have to be good in your striking tools such as jab, cross, hook, uppercut, front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, ...
- "striking art" and "grappling art" combination sparring, your goal is to obtain your clinch ASAP. You will need good "entering strategy" and "finish strategy". You have to be good in your clinch skill, throwing skill, and ground skill.

Both.

But, to be honest, I've done very little grappling and working from the clinch. I did a little clinch work whilst doing Muay Thai - I only went to two classes due to the contract they tried to get me to sign up to - and in terms of grappling, I've only been shown the basics of applying the rear naked choke but we will cover more grappling in the MMA class I've now joined.

I've got a few sweeps and takedowns under my belt that I can use occasionally when I get in close - learned primarily from Mantis - but the only follow up to that I have is more striking, which doesn't really lend it self to 'friendly' sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've done very little grappling and working from the clinch.

If you are a striker, the praying mantis system has many good striking combos:

- groin kick, face punch (striking combo 101),
- back fist, groin kick (mantis close door kick),
- triple hooks punch (low, medium, high),
- hook punch, back fist, uppercut, hammer fist, straight punch (the famous praying mantis 5 strikes combo),
- jab, cross, hook, hook (excellent offense skill),
- foot sweep, hook punch, leg spring (striking, throwing integration),
- ...

For counter punches, you may try the "big fist" strategy as shown in this clip. If you can avoid your head to get hit, you are already one step ahead.

You can use your "big fist' to hit on your opponent's face too (the training clip only hits on the chest).

 

[jks9199]

Look at what you're training for, and why. Many of your partner sets may be designed either to develop certain principles, like the various forms of sensitivity training, and not general "sparring", or for combat not sparring... which has different goals and results. If you want to do well in the MMA sparring game -- you have to work things specifically set up for that. If Muhammad Ali got in a ring against a sumo wrestler, he'd probably have had his butt handed to him -- because the rules were so different. I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd have had trouble against several MMA fighters, despite almost certainly having superior boxing skills.

 

[Dinkydoo]

If you are a striker, the praying mantis system has many good striking combos:

- groin kick, face punch (striking combo 101),
- back fist, groin kick (mantis close door kick),
- triple hooks punch (low, medium, high),
- hook punch, back fist, uppercut, hammer fist, straight punch (the famous praying mantis 5 strikes combo),
- jab, cross, hook, hook (excellent offense skill),
- foot sweep, hook punch, leg spring (striking, throwing integration),
- ...

For counter punches, you may try the "big fist" strategy as shown in this clip. If you can avoid your head to get hit, you are already one step ahead.

You can use your "big fist' to hit on your opponent's face too (the training clip only hits on the chest).

I need to avoid the door shutting kicks due to not many people wearing groin protectors!!

I've came up with a few striking combos similar to what you've listed above and I'm doing a bit better in sparring although I've been doing it almost every night for a fortnight! I'm starting to get better at timing and integrating the Mantis I've learned into a more sparring-effective approach. It's just going to take practice and I'll be beaten badly some nights and do better on others; my sparring ability is simply indicative of not doing much heavy contact sparring at all in the 3 years I've been training.

The big-fist method looks interesting, if I'm brave enough I might give it a go at some point!

 

[Dinkydoo]

Look at what you're training for, and why. Many of your partner sets may be designed either to develop certain principles, like the various forms of sensitivity training, and not general "sparring", or for combat not sparring... which has different goals and results. If you want to do well in the MMA sparring game -- you have to work things specifically set up for that. If Muhammad Ali got in a ring against a sumo wrestler, he'd probably have had his butt handed to him -- because the rules were so different. I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd have had trouble against several MMA fighters, despite almost certainly having superior boxing skills.

Lots of my traditional training every week is focused on sensitivity training and not on skills that might not be easily transferred to 'general sparring' but I disagree in principle with the 'combat' comment. Granted, we're training eye strikes, knee stomps and groin kicks in several of (even the early) forms in the Seven Star Praying Mantis system but we're using an element of control in training because we simply cannot go around blinding each other and snapping bones every week. The same can be said about 'general sparring'; yes, we're fighting, but we're not jumping on the other guys head when he goes down, and I don't think it's THAT far removed from what a fight outside of class could end up like if both guys had a little training between them.

I feel as though the 10 sparring sessions I've had over the past 2 1/2 weeks has prepared me as much as all of the other training I've undertaken in the past 12 months for defending myself in a fight. Some of the stuff I've been practicing in the last 3 years doesn't work very well in sparring, some works really well and others I need much more practice at before making a judgement.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Well glad to see your sparring is coming along Dinkydoo.

Did the 4-5 hit combo training help a bit?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Well glad to see your sparring is coming along Dinkydoo.

Did the 4-5 hit combo training help a bit?

Yea Doppleganger, it definitely did. Not being used to sparring with that level of contact and intensity I was being too tentative and throwing in only two or three half hearted strikes at a time. I've drilled multiple combos in the air and against my bag every time I've did a bit of training since I created the other thread and its helped a lot. I'm far from perfect, but I can see improvement and that's enough to keep me training hard.

I'm going to shift emphasis away from sparring in a couple of weeks to doing partner drills almost every day before equalising them both out in my training. I prefer to really work at something for a while to get whatever I'm trying to improve up to a better level before settling back into more balanced training. Problem with this level of sparring 5 times a week is that I'm feeling a bit sore now even though I wear sparring gear!

Cheers.

 

[Thunder Foot]

You may want to revisit the type of equipment you are sparring with. If you plan to use groin kicks and your partner is not wearing a cup, that can hinder your progress.
In relation to boxing or Muay Thai, I find that WC works best in the clinch. This meaning that you can still apply pressure to your partner while they may be attempting to hold or manipulate the position to strike. But you have to close the distance to do so. My recommendation would be to make that the focal point of your training, learn how to deal with the constant pace of committed and non-committed attacks, and footwork footwork footwork.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My striking background is primarily Western boxing and Muay Thai, but I have occasionally pulled off the little bit of Wing Chun that I know in sparring. (Generally just something simple like a straight blast or an entry off of a pak sao.) The key seems to be recognizing the right moment to apply it. I have to be very close and very aggressive and my opponent has to be giving me the right kind of energy. I've never pulled off any of those fancy trapping combinations, but then I'm not a real Wing Chun practitioner either.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've got a few sweeps and takedowns under my belt ...

You may try to use your "sweep" as your initial move. The moment that your opponent puts any weight on his leading leg, you sweep that leg. It doesn't matter whether you can sweep your opponent down or not. As long as you can sweep your opponent's leading foot to be off the ground, his leading leg will jam his own back leg (at that particular moment, he can't kick you). If you can use one arm to push his leading arm to jam his back arm (at that particular moment, he can't punch you), you will have a safe entry and finish him with a throw or a punch to the face.

IMO, a safe entry (close the distance without being punched or kicked) is what you are looking for.